Protestants: How would you define Christ's Church?

[elvisman]

have you constructed a New Testament Timeline yet?
Have you reconciled the timeline in the Gospels, and the timeline in Acts, with the timeline of the Pauline Epistles?

jonathon

Hey - you’re the one making this baseless claim.
The onus is on you to prove it - not me to disprove it.

 

[mesl4]

**
As that famous 19th Century convert Cardinal John Henry Newman** once said, “To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant.”
Unless the history was written by the confused, teaching erroneous doctrine as if it were fact.

Also, to all who were implying that I’m being rude/“not-charitable” or to walk away if I’m not going to take all the RCC doctrine in, that is not at all my intention. Of course I will walk away…but not until I"m convinced it’s wrong. I’m still not convinced either way. Quit saying I’ve made my decision. I so have not. I get swayed back and forth during the course of just one day! It’s awful and frustrating. I beg and plead with God to make it clear to me. I only want to please him and serve him and do his will and fear joining a group that wants to define him and his world so distinctly, and “play God” if it isn’t true. If it is true, great! I jump in and accept it all. I refuse to be a “cafeteria Catholic.” I was a die hard Evangelical, and I will be a die hard Catholic if I convert. I take God and salvation very seriously. I’m not trying to be rude. I argue the Catholic side w/my Protestant friends,. and vice versa. I want to lay out all my doubts so things don’t creep up after I convert and it’s too late.

 

[laverita]

**My question wasn’t **loaded - and neither napsack nor anybody else on this forum is Jesus.
I have filled only the roll of Elvisman.

Since 2 other Protestants have refused to answer it - can you?

Originally Posted by Hisalone View Post
Christ Church is made up of all that are in the body of Christ.
Who is in the body of Christ?
Anyone who is a Christian.
Who is a Christian?
A Christian is anyone who has been born again or reborn in the spirit.

How about the ones who have fallen away?
Are they still Christians?

From the origin I would have to have your definition of “fallen away” My understanding of salvation as the tread was stared Protestants: How would you define Christ’s Church? I think that people that have received the Holy Spirit are the Church. To make a case I will use 2 verses.
Matthew 12-31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It first says that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven. But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. When Peter denied Christ 3 times was he committing a sin or was he resisting the truth he knew, or reveled to him. An argument about the Holy Spirit not yet being present is not valid. The verse that I see all the time is Mathew 16 Jesus said to Peter that " for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

I would say that Peter was fallen away. Did it cost him salvation? No. Did Peter understand the implications or experience a conviction of the Spirit at the time? I would say undoubtedly he did. In looking he was in sin just as the Spirit convicts us of stealing or in Peters case a lie. He knew the truth but denied it.

But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost sall not be forgiven.
In John 16 we see Jesus say “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come”.

Rejection of the truth is blasphemy against the Holly Ghost. Jesus calls it the Spirit of truth.

Now to question, we can see this is unforgivable “but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”.

Some other verses refer to the Holly Spirit as the deposit of salvation, our seal. I dont think that you could lose this salvation but you can suppress it just as Peter did. I look at it as the official beginning of the work in my life, the time the Spirit entered me forever sealing me, I will not be lost.
John 3 I kept them in THY NAME: those that THOU gavest ME I have kept, and none of them is lost.
Are we not also born of the same Spirit as the disciples?
Did not Jesus speak of leaving the 99 sheep to look for the lost 1.
And none of them is lost.
I like Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Im trying to anticipate your reply, I will suppose you will reply that this Spirit does not work outside the Catholic Church. In Numbers 11:16 the Lord said to Mosses to gather 70 men. He then says that "17 I will take the Spirit that is upon you and put the same upon them. The story continues and in 26 we see that 2 men outside the Temple and the Tabernacle 70 also received the Spirit. This was reported to Moses and Joshua bid Moses to forbid it. But Moses did not limit the work of the Spirit, he accepted them. He also said Oh that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them. Can we draw a comparison to Moses the 70 elders and the Holy Spirit with the Catholic Church? Was the work of the Spirit outside Moses and the Tabernacle a lesser Spirit?

So fallen away I believe is when one that is born of the Spirit, but as we all do, walks in the flesh. Just as Peter did he was in the flesh denning the Lord rather than being in the Spirit. Peter is an example of the struggle we war against everyday. The flesh and the Spirit struggle against one another.

Please comment from your knowledge and back ground now that I have gone out on a limb and stated mine.

 

[elvisman]

Unless the history was written by the confused, teaching erroneous doctrine as if it were fact.

Also, to all who were implying that I’m being rude/“not-charitable” or to walk away if I’m not going to take all the RCC doctrine in, that is not at all my intention. Of course I will walk away…but not until I"m convinced it’s wrong. I’m still not convinced either way. Quit saying I’ve made my decision. I so have not. I get swayed back and forth during the course of just one day! It’s awful and frustrating. I beg and plead with God to make it clear to me. I only want to please him and serve him and do his will and fear joining a group that wants to define him and his world so distinctly, and “play God” if it isn’t true. If it is true, great! I jump in and accept it all. I refuse to be a “cafeteria Catholic.” I was a die hard Evangelical, and I will be a die hard Catholic if I convert. I take God and salvation very seriously. I’m not trying to be rude. I argue the Catholic side w/my Protestant friends,. and vice versa. I want to lay out all my doubts so things don’t creep up after I convert and it’s too late.

Well, I felt that you were bing disrespectful by your tone.
However, since you clarified the matter, I understand.

There is a way to question the Church without seeming disrepectful. Ask - even challenge, but be charitable.

I hope you find the answers.

 

[elvisman]

From the origin I would have to have your definition of “fallen away” My understanding of salvation as the tread was stared Protestants: How would you define Christ’s Church? I think that people that have received the Holy Spirit are the Church. To make a case I will use 2 verses.
Matthew 12-31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It first says that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven. But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. When Peter denied Christ 3 times was he committing a sin or was he resisting the truth he knew, or reveled to him. An argument about the Holy Spirit not yet being present is not valid. The verse that I see all the time is Mathew 16 Jesus said to Peter that " for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

I would say that Peter was fallen away. Did it cost him salvation? No. Did Peter understand the implications or experience a conviction of the Spirit at the time? I would say undoubtedly he did. In looking he was in sin just as the Spirit convicts us of stealing or in Peters case a lie. He knew the truth but denied it.

But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost sall not be forgiven.
In John 16 we see Jesus say “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come”.

Rejection of the truth is blasphemy against the Holly Ghost. Jesus calls it the Spirit of truth.

Now to question, we can see this is unforgivable “but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”.

Some other verses refer to the Holly Spirit as the deposit of salvation, our seal. I dont think that you could lose this salvation but you can suppress it just as Peter did. I look at it as the official beginning of the work in my life, the time the Spirit entered me forever sealing me, I will not be lost.
John 3 I kept them in THY NAME: those that THOU gavest ME I have kept, and none of them is lost.
Are we not also born of the same Spirit as the disciples?
Did not Jesus speak of leaving the 99 sheep to look for the lost 1.
And none of them is lost.
I like Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Im trying to anticipate your reply, I will suppose you will reply that this Spirit does not work outside the Catholic Church. In Numbers 11:16 the Lord said to Mosses to gather 70 men. He then says that "17 I will take the Spirit that is upon you and put the same upon them. The story continues and in 26 we see that 2 men outside the Temple and the Tabernacle 70 also received the Spirit. This was reported to Moses and Joshua bid Moses to forbid it. But Moses did not limit the work of the Spirit, he accepted them. He also said Oh that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them. Can we draw a comparison to Moses the 70 elders and the Holy Spirit with the Catholic Church? Was the work of the Spirit outside Moses and the Tabernacle a lesser Spirit?

So fallen away I believe is when one that is born of the Spirit, but as we all do, walks in the flesh. Just as Peter did he was in the flesh denning the Lord rather than being in the Spirit. Peter is an example of the struggle we war against everyday. The flesh and the Spirit struggle against one another.

Please comment from your knowledge and back ground now that I have gone out on a limb and stated mine.

The Catholic Church - as well as most mainline Protestant faiths teach that the “unforgiveable sin” against the Holy Spirit is final impenitence - the refusal to the end.
I pretty much agree on your definition of falling away as well. One can indeed come back to the fold.

What the Church teaches is that salvation/sanctification is a process - a journey. Whereas we can have a moral assurance of salvation (if we persevere to the end, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13) We do not have a cut and dry guarantee. We don’t because God has given us free will to accept or reject him at any time during this journey.

Finally, I believe that the Holy Spirit can and does work through many vehicles. Some Christian and some not.
In the Old Testament, God worked through a wicked pagan like Pharoah to achieve his ends. God can even work through evil governments because in the end - he is Lord over ALL.

 

[laverita]

Finally, I believe that the Holy Spirit can and does work through many vehicles. Some Christian and some not.
In the Old Testament, God worked through a wicked pagan like Pharoah to achieve his ends. God can even work through evil governments because in the end - he is Lord over ALL.

Thanks for your reply and our agreement on the term fallen away.

Your parting reply to my reference in Numbers. I agree that God can and does command both those who he has chosen and those who deny him. That was not my point. My point was that the Church the same as Israel received the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe that all the people of Israel are saved by the (flesh) (blood line) if that were the case Jesus would never have had a problem. Many Protestants believe this. Does the Catholic church also believe this? My reading indicates that when Jacob was also called Israel at that point, I understand that there are 2 Israels, the Israel of the flesh (nation) and the Israel of the (Spirit) the Spiritual Israel of the promises. I see the beginning of this in Sarah’s and Abraham’s attempt to fulfill the promise of a child with Hagar and Ishmael. Not the receiver of the promise (Spirit) but rather a fleshly attempt. The next is Isaac, the true son and receiver of the promise (Spirit) his twins Esau and Jacob. One seeks after the flesh and the other seeks the Spirit. This theme continues and become more evident. If you miss this distinction, and the work of the Spirit with Mosses and the 70,also the Spirits working outside the Tabernacle in numbers 11:16. You continue to mix the saved Israel with the unsaved. Did not the LORD take 40 years in the desert to weed out the unfaithful. This happened after the promise to Abraham. So if all the descending of Abraham were recipient of the promise why did God threw the entire OT weed out the unfaithful. We also see Paul in the NT making the point clear again
Romans 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

We can see even in the OT their are 2 Israels.The Nation and the chosen Spirit.

The same is true in tracing the work of the Holy Spirit threw the OT the Spirit filled left their message, a bread trail if you will by God leading the faithful home. Lets not mix up or confuse the saved from the unsaved. Those born of the Spirit and those who are not. We can see that you can nether call Israel or the NT church all of Israel. All Israel is the work of the Spirit.

Equating Eldad and Medad the 2 that received the Spirit out side of Moses and the Tabernacle, with Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar’s eating grass for his unbelief is just wrong. The Spirit never rested on them.

 

[elvisman]

Thanks for your reply and our agreement on the term fallen away.

Your parting reply to my reference in Numbers. I agree that God can and does command both those who he has chosen and those who deny him. That was not my point. My point was that the Church the same as Israel received the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe that all the people of Israel are saved by the (flesh) (blood line) if that were the case Jesus would never have had a problem. Many Protestants believe this. Does the Catholic church also believe this? My reading indicates that when Jacob was also called Israel at that point, I understand that there are 2 Israels, the Israel of the flesh (nation) and the Israel of the (Spirit) the Spiritual Israel of the promises. I see the beginning of this in Sarah’s and Abraham’s attempt to fulfill the promise of a child with Hagar and Ishmael. Not the receiver of the promise (Spirit) but rather a fleshly attempt. The next is Isaac, the true son and receiver of the promise (Spirit) his twins Esau and Jacob. One seeks after the flesh and the other seeks the Spirit. This theme continues and become more evident. If you miss this distinction, and the work of the Spirit with Mosses and the 70,also the Spirits working outside the Tabernacle in numbers 11:16. You continue to mix the saved Israel with the unsaved. Did not the LORD take 40 years in the desert to weed out the unfaithful. This happened after the promise to Abraham. So if all the descending of Abraham were recipient of the promise why did God threw the entire OT weed out the unfaithful. We also see Paul in the NT making the point clear again
Romans 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

We can see even in the OT their are 2 Israels.The Nation and the chosen Spirit.

The same is true in tracing the work of the Holy Spirit threw the OT the Spirit filled left their message, a bread trail if you will by God leading the faithful home. Lets not mix up or confuse the saved from the unsaved. Those born of the Spirit and those who are not. We can see that you can nether call Israel or the NT church all of Israel. All Israel is the work of the Spirit.

Equating Eldad and Medad the 2 that received the Spirit out side of Moses and the Tabernacle, with Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar’s eating grass for his unbelief is just wrong. The Spirit never rested on them.

I’m glad we agree on the first point but you lost me on the rest.

I never said that the Holy spirit “rested” on Pharaoh or Nebuchednezzar. I said that God can and does work through any vehicle he wills to achieve his glorious ends.

 

[laverita]

**I’m glad we agree on the first **point but you lost me on the rest.

**I never **said that the Holy spirit “rested” on Pharaoh or Nebuchednezzar. I said that God can and does work through any vehicle he wills to achieve his glorious ends.

Thank You I have been looking for common ground between Catholic and Non Catholic but it is very difficult. Taking and comparing statements is not completely satisfactory for me. The division of the saved (Spirit received people) drawn around the Catholic’s is of the most interest to me. I have read many treads that support this but it usually only references a few NT verses. I was looking for a Catholic presentation of the meaning of this work in Numbers 11:16. Continuing to reference the same verses is fine but Im looking for a bit more meat. Im hoping to find treads that broaden the Catholic faith in the scripture beyond Matthew and several other commonly used books. Thank You

 

[elvisman]

Thank You I have been looking for common ground between Catholic and Non Catholic but it is very difficult. Taking and comparing statements is not completely satisfactory for me. The division of the saved (Spirit received people) drawn around the Catholic’s is of the most interest to me. I have read many treads that support this but it usually only references a few NT verses. I was looking for a Catholic presentation of the meaning of this work in Numbers 11:16. Continuing to reference the same verses is fine but Im looking for a bit more meat. Im hoping to find treads that broaden the Catholic faith in the scripture beyond Matthew and several other commonly used books. Thank You

Actually - there is much more that unites us than divides.
The problem is - the small percentage of things that divide us are of paramount importance.