Protestants: Where in the Bible does it say, you only need Jesus and not the Church?

[ibkc]

Sounds like a typical Catholic strawman. I don’t know of anybody who says that we don’t need the church.

The word is Church, with a capital C, denoting the Church founded by Christ. Not church, as in ecclesiastical community founded by men in schism from Christ’s church. Many Protestants say they don’t need the Church. Therefore it is not a strawman argument.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Ahem, actually your fellow Protestants who I spoken too in real life have claimed and told me that they do not need the church.

Then they’re wrong and they’re in a very small minority.

The Church and Jesus are one. Fr. Corapi often said in his lecture that separating the Church and Jesus is a false dichtomy.

Then Mr.Corapi is a heretic. The church is not Jesus and Jesus is not the church.

Believe or not, there are some Liberal Catholics who also believe you do not need the Church and that your belief is God and living a good life is good enough.

At this point, nothing a Catholic says he believes surprises me.

The word is Church, with a capital C, denoting the Church founded by Christ. Not church, as in ecclesiastical community founded by men in schism from Christ’s church.

Are you sure you want to get into a grammar battle with me?

Many Protestants say they don’t need the Church. Therefore it is not a strawman argument.

Stating that all Protestants believe something when, in fact, only a very small number really do, is a strawman.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then they’re wrong and they’re in a very small minority.

True.

Then Mr.Corapi is a heretic. The church is not Jesus and Jesus is not the church.

False dichtomy is false interpretation. Fr. Corapi is not a heretic. For one, the Church consist of the believers in Christ, who have been baptized. We become his brothers and sisters. Just as Jesus is the head of the Church, we make up the body of the Church.

I would read Paul’s conversion story if I were you. Jesus said to Saul. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Saul answered. “Who are you Lord?” Jesus answered, “I am Jesus Christ, whom you are persecuting.”

Now let’s take a look what Saul did. He imprisoned many Christians and have many of them killed like Deacon Stephen. When Saul persecuted the Church, he persecuted Jesus. The Church and Jesus are One in a spiritual sense not literal sense.

At this point, nothing a Catholic says he believes surprises me.

The Catholic teachings is found in the only in the Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching.

Are you sure you want to get into a grammar battle with me?

Are you challenging me?

Stating that all Protestants believe something when, in fact, only a very small number really do, is a strawman.

Where did I say all Protestants?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

False dichtomy is false interpretation. Fr. Corapi is not a heretic.

According to you, he’s teaching heresy.

I would read Paul’s conversion story if I were you. Jesus said to Saul. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Saul answered. “Who are you Lord?” Jesus answered, “I am Jesus Christ, whom you are persecuting.”

At this moment, we have a family member who is ina hospital bed waiting to die. Yesterday, my brother in law said “why is this happening to us”. That doesn’t mean that my brother in law is the one who is sick.

Where did I say all Protestants?

When you say “Protestants” and do not qualify it, that means all Protestants.

 

[MrS]

When you say “Protestants” and do not qualify it, that means all Protestants.

I guess you are here to prove that it is not just the protestant in the pew who has so many misunderstandings, misconceptions, and mistakes.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I guess you are here to prove that it is not just the protestant in the pew who has so many misunderstandings, misconceptions, and mistakes.

No, I’m here to show that Manny needs to qualify his attacks on Protestants to show that he’s not attacking all Protestants if, indeed, he is only attacking some Protestants.

 

[RobHom]

No, I’m here to show that Manny needs to qualify his attacks on Protestants to show that he’s not attacking all Protestants if, indeed, he is only attacking some Protestants.

Jim, I think maybe you…as a Protestant…should take on a little bit of a project. Maybe you could correct that problem you are complaining about by taking the time to list out all of the different Protestant denominations and their core and other beliefs listing them by denomination. If you were to do that…we might be able to stop pointing to “Protestants” as doing this or that… Or maybe we should just refer to y’all as OTCC’s (other than Catholic Christians)…or come up with another acronym.

In these particular cases…if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, don’t sweat the small stuff. Ok? Coming here and playing the victim won’t score you any points…

Whether you choose to believe it or not…calling y’all “Protestants” is not out of malice…its simply easiest, and why it is easy can be illustrated simply by pointing out to you the fact that in one of our other discussions…You championed “altar calls”, yet I posted three link sources…each and every one of them “Protestant” in origin…that denies your claims of them being “Biblical”… You guys created the problem… you solve it, or get over it.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Jim, I think maybe you…as a Protestant…should take on a little bit of a project. Maybe you could correct that problem you are complaining about by taking the time to list out all of the different Protestant denominations and their core and other beliefs listing them by denomination. If you were to do that…we might be able to stop pointing to “Protestants” as doing this or that… Or maybe we should just refer to y’all as OTCC’s (other than Catholic Christians)…or come up with another acronym.

Even if I were to do that, it wouldn’t stop you. Instead of misrepresenting all of Protestantism, you’d just start attacking one denomination at a time.

In these particular cases…if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, don’t sweat the small stuff. Ok? Coming here and playing the victim won’t score you any points…

I’ll be sure to remember that next time one of you calls me an “anti-Catholic hatemonger”.

Whether you choose to believe it or not…calling y’all “Protestants” is not out of malice

Calling somebody a Protestant is no problem at all. However, lying about what all Protestants believe is unacceptable.

You championed “altar calls”

I didn’t “champion” altar calls. I just pointed out Biblical evidence that shows that the precedent for them is found in scripture.

yet I posted three link sources…each and every one of them “Protestant” in origin…that denies your claims of them being “Biblical”… You guys created the problem… you solve it, or get over it.

Actually, they don’t claim that the altar call, itself, is Unbiblical, only the way that altar calls have been used by a small minority to manipulate people.

And, in any event, even if they don’t like altar calls, so what? There is plenty of Biblical precedent for calling the pastor and elders of a church to pray for people.

 

[Mannyfit75]

No, I’m here to show that Manny needs to qualify his attacks on Protestants to show that he’s not attacking all Protestants if, indeed, he is only attacking some Protestants.

My attacks at some Protestants not all.

 

[Mannyfit75]

According to you, he’s teaching heresy.

What heresy do you think I claim he was teaching? I merely stated that in the spiritual essence, the Church and Christ are One because the Head of the Church is Jesus Christ. It’s Biblical.

This is explain further in the Catechism:

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church. Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Here is an interesting contradiction from you Pastor Jim…

There is plenty of Biblical precedent for calling the pastor and elders of a church to pray for people.

This posted from another thread.
Originally Posted by Pastor Jim forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Where in the Bible does it say that God shows mercy to sinners based on the prayers of others?

Which is correct? You have refuted your own claim here, again!

 

[inJESUS]

If i understand well, the invisible church is the believers? that is, there is no “authority” in this church?

 

[TriuneUnity]

If i understand well, the invisible church is the believers? that is, there is no “authority” in this church?

Except for Christ. Having said that, the visible gathering of the Church into a congregational body will have authority.

 

[Josh316]

Then they’re wrong and they’re in a very small minority.

Then Mr.Corapi is a heretic. The church is not Jesus and Jesus is not the church.

At this point, nothing a Catholic says he believes surprises me.

Are you sure you want to get into a grammar battle with me?

Stating that all Protestants believe something when, in fact, only a very small number really do, is a strawman.

It’s Fr. Corapi not mr. and the only heretic I see spouting blasphemous claims is you

 

[Pastor_Jim]

It’s Fr. Corapi not mr.

He is not my father, so I will choose to call him “Mr. Copari”.

and the only heretic I see spouting blasphemous claims is you

Could you please provide an example of anything I’ve said that is blasphemous?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

He is not my father, so I will choose to call him “Mr. Copari”.
quote]
Thank you for your opinion, Mr. Jim.

Hope that helps you somehow!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

**

He is not my father, so I will choose to call him “Mr. Copari”.

you are right he is not your father. he is to Catholics only. just like St Paul is only father to Catholics. I mean all the apostles are fathers of all Catholics.

Could you please provide an example of anything I’ve said that is blasphemous?**

anything you say against the Holy Church is blasphemous.
and St Paul said that the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of TRUTH. and the Church is the CC. it has been, it is, and always will be according to the promise of our Lord.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Even if I were to do that, it wouldn’t stop you. Instead of misrepresenting all of Protestantism, you’d just start attacking one denomination at a time.

**Catholics do not attack no one. **

I’ll be sure to remember that next time one of you calls me an “anti-Catholic hatemonger”.



Calling somebody a Protestant is no problem at all. However, lying about what all Protestants believe is unacceptable.

we dont say, you guys do when you go around using chick tracks attackings our faith. so we know what you believe is not what we believe.

I didn’t “champion” altar calls. I just pointed out Biblical evidence that shows that the precedent for them is found in scripture.



Actually, they don’t claim that the altar call, itself, is Unbiblical, only the way that altar calls have been used by a small minority to manipulate people.


And, in any event, even if they don’t like altar calls, so what? There is plenty of Biblical precedent for calling the pastor and elders of a church to pray for people.

of a church??? how many different churches in the Bible tought different doctrines? did the apostles tought anything diferent from one another?

 

[Katia0203]

Hmm…after reading through this thread, the first thing I noticed/sensed was an underlying hostility, on both ends. I love a good debate, but I prefer a calm one, each side using scripture to support their arguments. I’m someone who is “on the fence” about this issue. I believe that when one believes in Christ, believing that He died for us and washed us clean and that we are called to live lives according to His will, they become a part of the Body of Christ, the group of believers all around the world who believe in Christ, of all denominations. Now, the Catholic Church claims they are the one true Church; I don’t think they are saying that everyone else is a heretic or damned to hell or anything like that, they are just saying that every believer needs to attend church (yes, with a small “c”) and gather together with a community of believers in Christ; it can’t and shouldn’t just be “you and your Bible” because Christ wants us to gather together and learn, pray, and worship. On one end, some Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is saying that “unless you are a Catholic, you are not saved and you will not go to heaven”, and on the other end, some Catholics believe that the Protestants are saying that “I only need Jesus and nothing else at all and I’m good”. Both of those positions do not represent the whole majority of Catholics or Protestants.

Some of you mentioned what Paul was writing in 1 Corinthians about division among the Church; I think when we argue defensively with each other we are only promoting more division. We need to focus on the one thing that every believer has in common: we follow Christ. Right? He is our anchor, our cornerstone. He is the One that brings us back together. Why do you suppose there are so many denominations? Because people disagree on some teachings and interpretations of scripture and they believe some different things, but those differences are of lesser importance than remembering Who you put your trust in as a Christian.

Maybe I sound like an Evangelical; I have received that accusation before when I have posted something like this out of genuine concern over debates that have turned ugly. I’m just thinking that Christ probably grieves to see us bickering back and forth like this; if you want to debate, that’s great! Its ok to talk to each other and learn from others, sharing your opinion in a calm and rational manner. Please keep that in mind.

I am a Catholic and I attend church each Sunday as a good Catholic should, but I still focus first and foremost on Christ and His Word. Please just read this through a few times, take a few deep breaths, spend some time in prayer with God, asking him for wisdom on this. Then, if and when you decide to post on here, let the Holy Spirit guide you to a calm response. Sound good?

:hug1:

God Bless,
Katy