Proving God With Logic and Reason

[lumenjesuchrist]

THIS IS NOT AN ATHEISM THREAD. It actually is a Protestantism thread. Anyway, my evangelical Protestant friend’s mom is one who always watches thoae TV preachers and such. She hears from them, “you can’t talk people into the kingdom.” While I totally agree with that, she takes that to major extremes saying it is impossible to argue with anyone based on logic, but only based on personal experience, and performing miracles in front of them. I feel like this point of view throws Aquinas and his Summa out the window! I think showing someone it is reasonable to believe using philosophical proofs would better open their eyes to faith in God’s love. Is there anything I could tell her? I feel she could better open people up with an argument using the same logic they try to use. Thanks!

 

[Beryllos]

I don’t have an answer to that, but allow me to think out loud and ask a few more:

Is it desirable to prove the existence of God by logic and reason?

Did the prophets or Jesus convince/convert people by logic and reason?

The ancient Greeks were heavily into logic and reason. Does anyone know of an argument or proof of God from that time, or of something that they may perhaps have described as transcendent or higher than anything we can know by logic or reason?

I am sorry that I am not (yet) (very) familiar with the reasoning of Aquinas, but tell me, do many people find it compelling to the point of conversion? Or perhaps does it only reinforce/strengthen someone’s faith that is already established by the grace of God?

On a related note: As a scientist, I have generally not been able to convince my peers by any arguments involving science. On the other side of the fence, Stephen Hawking, in The Grand Design, seems to be trying to disprove the existence of God by science, but I find his arguments unconvincing. I am beginning to think that scientific arguments either for or against the existence of God are not possible, because physical science goes only as far as this universe of space, time, matter, and energy.

However, I remain open to further enlightenment and pray that God may strengthen my faith.

 

[Elostirion]

It depends on how much they rely on logic and reason. Often people will hear the beginnings of an logical argument or proof and dismiss it immediately. So if they are one of these types of people a logical case will not work because they don’t want it to work. There are plenty of reasons for this, but much of it has to do with the status of philosophy today (which in my short experience deserves it).

I may be convinced by a miracle (although that opens a “gaps” issue) but am not moved by anecdotal/emotional “evidence”. Honestly it seems the more flamboyant the emotional display the less secure they seem.

Scientific arguments can only account for things which can be observed so any arguments stemming from this (largely analogical) are also very shaky.

On a side note, the earliest Grecian reference I know of to a God like we would know would be Xenophanes’ concept of The One.

 

[MidnightSun12]

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”

• St. Thomas Aquinas

It all depends on the person to whom you are talking. If a person doesn’t want to believe, no argument will convince him/her (there will always be some supposedly “rational” counter-argument available to poke a hole in your logical proof that God exists). This comes from the fact that God will never force somebody to believe in Him.

If God made His existence known to such a great degree of certainty that nobody could possibly disbelieve in Him (ie. He opened up the pits of hell below our feet and showed us the burning souls), where would be the free-will in this? It’s the same thing with logical proofs. If God gave apologists an absolute knock-out proof of His existence that could be used to back an atheist into an inescapable corner, that would be a violation of the atheist’s free-will. God wants us to freely choose Him, and not be forced to choose Him (if that was the case, then God would have just created us as animals who do not have free-will).

That said, it is still important that we can defend our Lord against attacks from atheists and that we try to help eliminate misconceptions that atheists may have. Even if somebody is an ardent atheist one day, that might not be the case years down the road. Your arguments against misconceptions and the charity with which you conduct yourself could one day bring about a deathbed conversion that you may never know about.