Psalm 22

[billcu1]

In Psalm 22 someone put “They nailed my hands and my feet” into the scriptures I’m assuming to give authenticity to the idea that David was speaking of Jesus. This is definately not in the Tanaukh. The question is was it in the Vulgate or did King James put it there. It really irks me when people go changing the scriptures around like this. Like King James putting “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the KJV. Does anyone know when this made it into the scriptures?

Bill

 

[StLudmilla]

Here is my understanding of what is going on. Ka’ari or ka’aru that is the question.

For the Tanakh they translate the word ka’ari, literally the last part of the verse: like a lion my hands and my feet

This is a strange bit of scripture even in the Hebrew. Unfortunately, to make it make some kind of sense (or to be contrary to Christians interpretations , words have been added to the Tanakh that are not there: “they are at”

And Christian texts translate this strange bit of verse with the the word pierced. They are not wrongly translating the word on purpose, but are translating an entirely different word all together. The word ka’aru, “pierced” would then be correct.

Now which is correct in the original hebrew, ka’ari or ka’aru? Well some of the sources of original hebrew texts have the word ka’ari and some have the word ka’aru.

Well let’s look to something unbiased from either side: The Dead Sea Scrolls. They use the word ka’aru.

So there is a witness for the word pierced. But who can read the entire psalm and not see in the text the suffering of the Messiah?

pax

 

[billcu1]

Here is my understanding of what is going on. Ka’ari or ka’aru that is the question.

For the Tanakh they translate the word ka’ari, literally the last part of the verse: like a lion my hands and my feet

This is a strange bit of scripture even in the Hebrew. Unfortunately, to make it make some kind of sense (or to be contrary to Christians interpretations , words have been added to the Tanakh that are not there: “they are at”

And Christian texts translate this strange bit of verse with the the word pierced. They are not wrongly translating the word on purpose, but are translating an entirely different word all together. The word ka’aru, “pierced” would then be correct.

Now which is correct in the original hebrew, ka’ari or ka’aru? Well some of the sources of original hebrew texts have the word ka’ari and some have the word ka’aru.

Well let’s look to something unbiased from either side: The Dead Sea Scrolls. They use the word ka’aru.

So there is a witness for the word pierced. But who can read the entire psalm and not see in the text the suffering of the Messiah?

Indeed

pax

It’s a very beautiful passage of scripture and I read it often. I’m not quite sure if the dead sea scrolls are unbiased though. Though they’re the oldest thing we have. They are from the Qumran community and they have all the books in our KJV bible except Ruth. They say they were the original Christians. The Essenes. Correct me if I’m wrong. What about the Vulgate or Septuagent. I can’t remember off hand which was first.
I feel a little better about going before a crucifix now or a partial or plenary indulgence and saying the prayer with that quote.

 

[thistle]

It’s a very beautiful passage of scripture and I read it often. I’m not quite sure if the dead sea scrolls are unbiased though. Though they’re the oldest thing we have. They are from the Qumran community and they have all the books **in our KJV bible **except Ruth. They say they were the original Christians. The Essenes. Correct me if I’m wrong. What about the Vulgate or Septuagent. I can’t remember off hand which was first.

I feel a little better about going before a crucifix now or a partial or plenary indulgence and saying the prayer with that quote.

What do you mean our KJV. The KJV is a Protestant Bible , not a Catholic one.

 

[meltzerboy]

Here is my understanding of what is going on. Ka’ari or ka’aru that is the question.

For the Tanakh they translate the word ka’ari, literally the last part of the verse: like a lion my hands and my feet

This is a strange bit of scripture even in the Hebrew. Unfortunately, to make it make some kind of sense (or to be contrary to Christians interpretations , words have been added to the Tanakh that are not there: “they are at”

And Christian texts translate this strange bit of verse with the the word pierced. They are not wrongly translating the word on purpose, but are translating an entirely different word all together. The word ka’aru, “pierced” would then be correct.

Now which is correct in the original hebrew, ka’ari or ka’aru? Well some of the sources of original hebrew texts have the word ka’ari and some have the word ka’aru.

Well let’s look to something unbiased from either side: The Dead Sea Scrolls. They use the word ka’aru.

So there is a witness for the word pierced. But who can read the entire psalm and not see in the text the suffering of the Messiah?

pax

I once read all the rebuttals and counter-rebuttals concerning this verse based on the Hebrew word you mention, and it is dizzying. The meaning of the Psalm, however, does not hinge only on that word, and the whole text has also been debated passionately.

 

[patrick457]

It’s a very beautiful passage of scripture and I read it often. I’m not quite sure if the dead sea scrolls are unbiased though. Though they’re the oldest thing we have. They are from the Qumran community and they have all the books in our KJV bible except Ruth. They say they were the original Christians. The Essenes. Correct me if I’m wrong. What about the Vulgate or Septuagent. I can’t remember off hand which was first.

I feel a little better about going before a crucifix now or a partial or plenary indulgence and saying the prayer with that quote.

Nope, the Qumran sect (I’m using this term here because while a lot of folks do think that the people living in nearby Qumran who wrote the scrolls were Essenes, there’s still some room for uncertainty) weren’t Christians - they were Jews, obviously - although they do provide us some context for the Judaism/s of the period and early Christianity.

And I think you’ll find that the only protocanonical OT not represented in the DSS is Esther (Nehemiah is also absent, but we do have fragments of Ezra, the book with which it is often paired together). We have fragments of Ruth from Caves 2 (2Q16-17) and 4 (2Q104-5).

 

[billcu1]

What do you mean our KJV. The KJV is a Protestant Bible , not a Catholic one.

Yes I meant us as christians. As opposed to the Jewish t’noch.

Bill

 

[billcu1]

Nope, the Qumran sect (I’m using this term here because while a lot of folks do think that the people living in nearby Qumran who wrote the scrolls were Essenes, there’s still some room for uncertainty) weren’t Christians - they were Jews, obviously - although they do provide us some context for the Judaism/s of the period and early Christianity.

And I think you’ll find that the only protocanonical OT not represented in the DSS is Esther (Nehemiah is also absent, but we do have fragments of Ezra, the book with which it is often paired together). We have fragments of Ruth from Caves 2 (2Q16-17) and 4 (2Q104-5).

Ok I’m not a DSS expert. I have read things like the war scroll (but can’t figure it out) and things of that nature. Are our catholic OT books represented like Tobit, Macabees and Sirach?

I have also read some of those “lost books” Books of Moses, Adam and Eve, 3-4 Isaiah. I don’t know about their authenticity.

Bill

 

[Linusthe2nd]

In Psalm 22 someone put “They nailed my hands and my feet” into the scriptures I’m assuming to give authenticity to the idea that David was speaking of Jesus. This is definately not in the Tanaukh. The question is was it in the Vulgate or did King James put it there. It really irks me when people go changing the scriptures around like this. Like King James putting “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the KJV. Does anyone know when this made it into the scriptures?

Bill

My Douay-Rheims says “…they have dug my hands and feet…”

Then I have My Daily Psalms by Confaternity of the Prescious Blook ( the one with all the pictures) which says “…They have pierced my hands and my feet…”

But the psalm is a foretelling of Christ’s passion and death. And it seems pretty certain that they did nail Christ’s hands ( more likely wrists) and feet. " Nailed " would be good as well.

Best not to read the apocyphal books.

 

[Mystophilus]

In Psalm 22 someone put “They nailed my hands and my feet” into the scriptures I’m assuming to give authenticity to the idea that David was speaking of Jesus. This is definately not in the Tanaukh. The question is was it in the Vulgate or did King James put it there. It really irks me when people go changing the scriptures around like this. Like King James putting “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the KJV. Does anyone know when this made it into the scriptures?

Bill

The LXX, slightly pre-Christ, uses ωρυξαν (“they dug”) in Ps 22:16; the Vulgate, C4th/5th, uses foderunt (“they dug”). These are apparently not bad translations, given that the Hebrew term כָּרָה is used elsewhere for digging wells (Gen 26:25) or pits (Ex 21:33), but I am getting that from a concordance, because I do not read Hebrew.

If not using “dug”, it would probably be better to use “bored” than “pierced”, but it is not very far off.

BTW, כּשׁף from Ex 22:18 is used for magicians elsewhere in the Hebrew, and “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” is in the Vulgate, although “maleficus” can mean other kinds of evil-doer. The LXX has “thou shalt not suffer a potion-maker”, which is pretty harsh for pharmacists, really.

 

[chosen_people]

In Psalm 22 someone put “They nailed my hands and my feet” into the scriptures I’m assuming to give authenticity to the idea that David was speaking of Jesus. This is definately not in the Tanaukh. The question is was it in the Vulgate or did King James put it there. It really irks me when people go changing the scriptures around like this. Like King James putting “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the KJV. Does anyone know when this made it into the scriptures?

Bill

Well the first thing you may have noticed is how Christians make a translation from the Hebrew to Greek and then to English ( The Septuagint is a translation of the Rabbis of the Torah [not of the prophets or writings] to Greek. In order to insure that their translation would not be tampered with they inserted 15 key passages in the Talmud - 13 of these passages appear in corrupted form in later Christian translations - not something that bodes well for relying on Christian translations of the text).

The second thing you might notice is how the Christian translation puts “Me” and “My” in capital letters to change the meaning to being a reference to the Christian god. This use of capitals is used repeatedly in Christian translations from the Hebrew. The thing is that there are no capitals in Hebrew. (For now lets put aside how antithetical that Christian concept of their god is to the Jewish scriptures and Jewish beliefs).

The third thing is how strange the word for piercing is. If the meaning was for pierced, why not use the word dakar- דקר or even ריצץ which would be far more usual.

The fourth thing is how we got to the word in the Christian translations. Instead of כארי (as a lion) supposedly what was written is כארו, in other words in a hand written manuscript the scribe lengthened the letter yod י and changed it into a vav ו - seemingly a simple scribal error.

The fifth thing is that the reference to a lion (אריה) which appears twice more in the Psalm is correctly translated as lion in the Christian translation - "like a raging and roaring lion - save me from the lion’s mouth.

The proper translation from the Hebrew is clear: “For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers have enclosed me, like (the prey of) a lion, are my hands and my feet.”

King David’s metaphor of the dog and the lion (menacing beasts) symbolizes David’s bitter foes that continually sought to destroy him. The verse is not in the future tense and is describing an historical event, not a messianic prophesy.

 

[Nelka]

I love Psalm 22.

:bible1::hug1:

 

[billcu1]

Well the first thing you may have noticed is how Christians make a translation from the Hebrew to Greek and then to English ( The Septuagint is a translation of the Rabbis of the Torah [not of the prophets or writings] to Greek. In order to insure that their translation would not be tampered with they inserted 15 key passages in the Talmud - 13 of these passages appear in corrupted form in later Christian translations - not something that bodes well for relying on Christian translations of the text).

The second thing you might notice is how the Christian translation puts “Me” and “My” in capital letters to change the meaning to being a reference to the Christian god. This use of capitals is used repeatedly in Christian translations from the Hebrew. The thing is that there are no capitals in Hebrew. (For now lets put aside how antithetical that Christian concept of their god is to the Jewish scriptures and Jewish beliefs).

The third thing is how strange the word for piercing is. If the meaning was for pierced, why not use the word dakar- דקר or even ריצץ which would be far more usual.

The fourth thing is how we got to the word in the Christian translations. Instead of כארי (as a lion) supposedly what was written is כארו, in other words in a hand written manuscript the scribe lengthened the letter yod י and changed it into a vav ו - seemingly a simple scribal error.

The fifth thing is that the reference to a lion (אריה) which appears twice more in the Psalm is correctly translated as lion in the Christian translation - "like a raging and roaring lion - save me from the lion’s mouth.

The proper translation from the Hebrew is clear: “For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers have enclosed me, like (the prey of) a lion, are my hands and my feet.”

King David’s metaphor of the dog and the lion (menacing beasts) symbolizes David’s bitter foes that continually sought to destroy him. The verse is not in the future tense and is describing an historical event, not a messianic prophesy.

Yes definately no capitals in Hebrew. No Ketuvim or Nevim in the septuagent then? What I have read in the t’noch is where Dovid says “they are at my feet” if I remember right.

Really helps
Toh Dah Rah Bah

 

[Mystophilus]

Yes definately no capitals in Hebrew. No Ketuvim or Nevim in the septuagent then? What I have read in the t’noch is where Dovid says “they are at my feet” if I remember right.

Really helps
Toh Dah Rah Bah

The original Septuagint was the Alexandrian Torah translation project, 70 or 72 scholars translating the first five books into Greek about 300 years before Christ, but subsequent generations of translators continued the project, covering the Nevi’im and the Ketuvim, and thus producing the Greek text quoted in the NT and the Early Church Fathers. Augustine describes it as having acquired the name Septuaginta (‘70’) in his day, and he uses that name for the complete canon (q.v. ch.42, where he discusses Jonah).