Psalms "of David"

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I have always been taught that when a Biblical psalm says that it “of David” it means that David wrote it - this seems especially so in cases like psalm 50(51) or in psalms written when hiding in a cave on specific occasions.

A verse on Monday from Psalm 5 caught my eye and set me thinking. In this psalm David says “I bow down before your holy temple, filled with awe.”

Now, we know that the temple hadn’t been built when David was King. So it got me wondering -

Is there any generally accepted theory in Catholicism as to what “psalm of David” means?

If David didn’t write these words, who did?

If David did write these words, what exactly was he referring to? - obviously not a nicely built physical temple. The idea of the temple? The vision of the temple? The foreseen temple?

Just wondering.

Now to start another thread and another thought and query on the same psalm!

Blessings

Asteroid
 
Hey 'Roid,

The fact is that most scholars agree that while David did write some of the Psalms, he did not write them all…in fact some Psalms say that they were written by others. Like you I can name Psalms that show no relation to the life of David, like Psalm 142:7…to my knowlege David was never in prison. Hmmmmm… Good Psalm though. :hmmm:
 
Peace be with you!

It is a big mistake to make judgments according to our human minds…

You can’t doubt the authorship of a passage, or even the worthiness of a passage just because you don’t know what the Scripture means by “temple of the Lord”…

For instance, we all know that the temple OF JERUSALEM was not built yet when the prophet Samuel was born. And yet we read in 1 Samuel 1:9:

“Then Hannah rose after eating and drinking in Shiloh. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the seat by the doorpost of the temple of the LORD

If we don’t understand what the temple is, can we say that this passage is not Word of God, because it is wrong?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Excuse me, but did anyone say that this scripture is not “word of God”? Did anyone doubt the “worthiness” of the passage?

There was just an honest question about authorship and the meaning of a word.

You’ve answered the authorship question - or at least reading your post and then researching further answered it - but the meaning question wasn’t answered without that further research. And for your answer and relating it to 1Sam1:9 I thank you.

But to imply that I believed this scripture to be unworthy or not word of God was not called for - there was no evidence to justify the suggestion. And the suggestion is entirely untrue.

In any case, many theologians don’t believe many psalms of David were written by David. Can I be blamed for asking what the Catholic take on this is? After all, we learn at RCIA that Adam and Eve didn’t exist and the Pentateuch was written very late on - basically that when scripture says “God said to Moses”, he didn’t. Not that I believe everything we are taught at RCIA! That’s what you get for having someone teaching you who is very into the Jerome commentary. It sometimes feels like Julius Wellhausen is teaching us. Oh well.
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

It is a big mistake to make judgments according to our human minds…

You can’t doubt the authorship of a passage, or even the worthiness of a passage just because you don’t know what the Scripture means by “temple of the Lord”…

For instance, we all know that the temple OF JERUSALEM was not built yet when the prophet Samuel was born. And yet we read in 1 Samuel 1:9:

“Then Hannah rose after eating and drinking in Shiloh. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the seat by the doorpost of the temple of the LORD

If we don’t understand what the temple is, can we say that this passage is not Word of God, because it is wrong?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!

My friend, you are doubting the authorship of a Psalm without a reason. I just tried to tell you that the word “temple” doesn’t always mean “the temple of Jerusalem built by the King Solomon”.

So no reason to doubt the authorship of that Psalm.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Ok, fair enough - but I never made a statement to say I doubted the authorship, only a question asking what catholicism believed, either who wrote it if not David, or what the passage meant if David wrote it.

I must apologise though - for reading my post again I can see that it could easily be interpretted that I personally doubted these things. I would never make a politician - I seem to have an uncanny knack of being ambiguous, which caused us great problems last year with someone. The opposition and media would probably jump on my words on a daily basis. (no comments about Dubya please). Anyway, apologies for my ambiguousness and the subsequent misunderstandings.

I was never doubting the “worthiness” of any scripture or that is was “word of God”. There wasn’t even a statement to say “I don’t believe David wrote this” (though I can see how that sort of thing would be assumed by the reader), just a question put out to Catholics more grounded in catholicism than I am as to what Catholicism believes as to who wrote it and what it means.

The trouble is, I only have one Catholic commentary on the Bible and thats New Jerome, which for regular devotional usage seems almost worse than useless, and for deep theological study seems to go out of its way sometimes to take liberal interpretations. Since it has the nihil obstat it claims to be free from doctrinal error.

If my nihil obstat Catholic commentary says the sort of things it does - why shouldn’t I wonder what Catholicism says about other Biblical issues? In RCIA we’ve been taught that there wasn’t a flood and Adam wasn’t real. Why shouldn’t I wonder these things?

Another question - how can someone grant this nihil obstat to their own writings? (as with this commentary). For something to be claimed as free of doctrinal error and for that claim to have been made by the author seems to be meaningless. Can I actually trust the words “nihil obstat”? Can I trust it when it is granted by the author of the book? Could Hans Kung do the same thing to his own book? (And if he can’t - why can Brown & Fitzmyer?) Ok, so that was several questions.

Is there a decent Catholic commentary on the whole Bible that believes, as most of the Protestant commentaries I have do, that the events described in Scripture actually took place and that where we read “God said to Moses”, God actually did say these things to Moses and Moses wrote them down as the Bible claims? Preferably a more in depth commentary than Jerome for devotional usage - New Jerome gets through 1Samuel1-3 in about one column of text which is an impressively small amount for such a big book.

As for Psalm142 - I’ve looked that up too now. And perhaps David was never in prison but this psalm says it was written “When he was in the cave” - that is, trapped, persecuted, probably hunted by armies and certainly imprisoned in a metaphorical way even if there were no bars on the cave. There was no way he could free himself and leave his cave prison without being killed. We don’t know which cave he was in at the time but don’t need to know. The cave is pictured as a prison. The only way he could escape was to be freed by Yahweh rescuing him. Hmm, that sentence sounds familiar in another context. Anyway, Psalm 142 does hold closely to the life of David - and to the title of the Psalm. (I wish the psalter/missal readings included the titles)

One question remains - does Catholicism generally agree that “psalm of David” means that David wrote the psalm. So far two people have responded. One says yes, the other says no. So far I don’t know if there is a generally accepted Catholic belief on this - which was the question originally asked.

Ach, gone on too long yet again.

Blessings & thank you yaqubos for your help.

Asteroid - who has just worked out that you may not be Catholic at all. Oops. There I go, making assumptions again! Maybe another apology is in order.
 
does Catholicism generally agree that “psalm of David” means that David wrote the psalm.
YES. And the Church teaches also that the Adam and Eve story, though it is a story, relates a real event which happened to our first ancestors.

CCC 390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

It is a big mistake to make judgments according to our human minds…

You can’t doubt the authorship of a passage, or even the worthiness of a passage just because you don’t know what the Scripture means by “temple of the Lord”…

For instance, we all know that the temple OF JERUSALEM was not built yet when the prophet Samuel was born. And yet we read in 1 Samuel 1:9:

“Then Hannah rose after eating and drinking in Shiloh. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the seat by the doorpost of the temple of the LORD

If we don’t understand what the temple is, can we say that this passage is not Word of God, because it is wrong?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I thought we were not supposed to use “our human minds” 😃

The fact remains, that the Psalm cannot by David, if David mentioned a temple which was not built until David was dead.

Unless one or more of the following is true:
  • the passage mentioning the temple was a post-Davidic addition
  • the word translated “temple” means something other than the Solomonic Temple
  • the ascription of the Psalm does not require us to believe that David was responsible for the Psalm
  • the ascription is not part of the Biblical text
There may be other possibilities, of course.

As for the passage in 1 Samuel 1.9, here are some passages relating to the holy place there:
  • Jos 18:1 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel assembled together at Shiloh, and set up the tabernacle of the congregation there. And the land was subdued before them.
  • Jos 19:51 These [are] the inheritances, which Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun, and the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel, divided for an inheritance by lot in Shiloh before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. So they made an end of dividing the country.
  • Jdg 18:31 And they set them up Micah’s graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh
  • 1Sa 1:9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
  • 1Sa 1:24 And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child [was] young.
  • 1Sa 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth [between] the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, [were] there with the ark of the covenant of God.
  • 1Sa 14:3 And Ahiah, the son of Ahitub, Ichabod’s brother, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eli, the LORD’S priest in Shiloh, wearing an ephod. And the people knew not that Jonathan was gone.
None of these requires one to think that there was a temple in Shiloh - a “house of God” or “tent of meeting”, yes - but not a pre-Solomonic temple. A smaller structure than the Solomonic Temple would “fit the bill”. All temples are “houses of God/Elohim/JHWH” - but all “houses of God” need not be temples.

An establishment with only a few priests, as Shiloh had, is hardly a temple such as Solomon built, which had many priests, and many sorts of staff. ##
 
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asteroid:
… The trouble is, I only have one Catholic commentary on the Bible and thats New Jerome, which for regular devotional usage seems almost worse than useless, and for deep theological study seems to go out of its way sometimes to take liberal interpretations. Since it has the nihil obstat it claims to be free from doctrinal error.

Calling a position “liberal” - or “conservative -” does not really tell one much about the detail of the interpretation - what matters is whether an interpretation is adequate in explaining the details of the text.​

Is there a decent Catholic commentary on the whole Bible that believes, as most of the Protestant commentaries I have do, that the events described in Scripture actually took place and that where we read “God said to Moses”, God actually did say these things to Moses and Moses wrote them down as the Bible claims?

If that were a misleading position, would you prefer it to be the position taken ? If an event did not happen as described, then it did not. If - for example - the Bible preserves different accounts of an event, then we must come to terms with the Bible as it is; not with the Bible as we might like it or think it to be​

One question remains - does Catholicism generally agree that “psalm of David” means that David wrote the psalm. So far two people have responded. One says yes, the other says no. So far I don’t know if there is a generally accepted Catholic belief on this - which was the question originally asked.

I’ve never heard there is any general agreement on this point. I know of translations which ignore the headings - which suggests that they are not part of the Psalms.​

The matter is not one of doctrine, so much as of the study of the tradition which lies behind the transmission of the text of the Psalms.

The following is by Father John Hardon, who can hardly be described as a “liberal”. He was well-respected as a speaker on EWTN.
"We know that the Psalms were not all composed at the same time, nor are they the work of one person. They were written by a variety of divinely inspired singers and later on collected to form the present Book of Psalms.

Most of the Psalms have headings which give the author’s name. Often the heading will indicate the time or occasion of composition, along with directions for song. These headings are the work of those who assembled the Psalms and not of those who originally wrote them. The information contained in the headings therefore comes from Jewish tradition.

Among the ascribed authors, David holds the first place. This is so true that the whole Book of Psalms is often called by his name. The reasons for this are that David is believed to have begun collecting the Psalms; he composed many of them himself; and the rest may be said to breathe his spirit. In the Hebrew Bible, seventy-three Psalms are attributed to him. The Vulgate (and Septuagint) add twelve others or, with Psalm 71, thirteen.

The remaining Psalms give no indication of their author. They are called “ownerless,” and in the Jewish Talmud are said to be “orphaned.”

When were the Psalms composed? It is not impossible that at least some of them were composed as late as the second century before Christ. However, not only the headings but the tradition of the Jews refer them to an earlier period. Moreover, in the time of the Maccabees in the second century B.C., the Book of Psalms had already been fully translated into Greek."

Go here for the rest: therealpresence.org/archives/Sacred_Scripture/Sacred_Scripture_003.htm ##
Ach, gone on too long yet again.

Blessings & thank you yaqubos for your help.

Asteroid - who has just worked out that you may not be Catholic at all. Oops. There I go, making assumptions again! Maybe another apology is in order.
 
In addition, some of those Psalms which say “Of David” may indicate that it was written after the style of David, in his Psalm-writing tradition.
 
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