Punishing Countries

[Genesis315]

The punishments in the OT were real, but their purpose was mostly pedagogical. The punishments to say, Sodom and Gomorrah, taught how those sins were mortal sins and that they also had the effect of spiritually corrupting society as a whole (thus the destruction of whole cities or nations in the OT).

Christ, the definitive revelation of God, fully revealed the consequences of sin: eternal damnation. That kind of pedagogical punishment is no longer needed. Here is how St. Catherine of Siena’s Dialogue puts it (God is speaking here):
St. Catherine of Siena:

The old law was the law of fear, that was given by Me to Moses, by which law they who committed sin suffered the penalty of it. The new law is the law of love, given by the Word of My only-begotten Son, and is founded in love alone. The new law does not break the old law, but rather fulfills it, as said My Truth, ‘I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.’ And He united the law of fear with that of love. Through love was taken away the imperfection of the fear of the penalty, and the perfection of holy fear remained, that is, the fear of offending, not on account of one’s own damnation, but of offending Me, who am Supreme Good. So that the imperfect law was made perfect with the law of love. Wherefore, after the car of the fire of My only-begotten Son came and brought the fire of My charity into your humanity with abundance of mercy, the penalty of the sins committed by humanity was taken away, that is, he who offended was no longer punished suddenly, as was of old given and ordained in the law of Moses.

There is, therefore, no need for servile fear; and this does not mean that sin is not punished, but that the punishment is reserved, unless, that is to say, the person punish himself in this life with perfect contrition. For, in the other life, the soul is separated from the body, wherefore while man lives is his time for mercy, but when he is dead comes the time of justice.

On the other hand, their is the expiatory nature of chastisements sent by God–but these are not for the reprobate, but for the elect. In fact, many Saints, like St. Robert Bellarmine, have explained that often times God rewards the reprobate in this life for what little good they do since (in his foreknowledge) he knows they will be punished forever for their sins. Conversely, he punishes the elect for what little sins they commit in this life, since they will be rewarded eternally for the good they do.

This is summed up in Scripture here:
Bible:

Heb. 12[5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him.[6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.[11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

And here this same sentiment is spoken of beautifully by St. Thomas More:
St. Thomas More:

If we lay first, for a sure ground, a very fast faith, whereby we believe to be true all that the scripture saith (understood truly, as the old holy doctors declare it and as the spirit of God instructeth his Catholic church), then shall we consider tribulation as a gracious gift of God, a gift that he specially gave his special friends; a thing that in scripture is highly commended and praised; a thing of which the contrary, long continued, is perilous; a thing which, if God send it not, men have need to put upon themselves and seek by penance; a thing that helpeth to purge our past sins; a thing that preserveth us from sins that otherwise would come; a thing that causeth us to set less by the world; a thing that much diminisheth our pains in purgatory; a thing that much increaseth our final reward in heaven; the thing with which all his apostles followed him thither; the thing to which our Saviour exhorteth all men; the thing without which he saith we be not his disciples; the thing without which no man can get to heaven.

In conclusion, we shouldn’t be expecting (or conditioning our faith) on God exacting justice from sinners in this life. Whatever injustices our society does not redress in this world will be redressed in the next (in Purgatory for those who have reconciled and in Hell for those who have not). Likewise, those suffering chastisements are not necessarily the unjust and vice versa.

 

[eddie_too]

what will become of countries/societies who ignore divine laws and instead persist in making laws that contravene the Father’s will?

who will thrive? the societies who know and accept the Father’s will or the societies that defy God?

the ancients understood the natural consequences of defying God as being punished by God. it is through Jesus we learn and understand that man chooses the negative consequences of defying God and His laws. it is not God’s will that mankind suffer. mankind’s suffering was brought on by defying God and each of us suffers to the extent our relationship with God is strong or weak or non-existent.

 

[GUYMAN]

The punishments in the OT were real, but their purpose was mostly pedagogical. The punishments to say, Sodom and Gomorrah, taught how those sins were mortal sins and that they also had the effect of spiritually corrupting society as a whole (thus the destruction of whole cities or nations in the OT).

Christ, the definitive revelation of God, fully revealed the consequences of sin: eternal damnation. That kind of pedagogical punishment is no longer needed. Here is how St. Catherine of Siena’s Dialogue puts it (God is speaking here):

On the other hand, their is the expiatory nature of chastisements sent by God–but these are not for the reprobate, but for the elect. In fact, many Saints, like St. Robert Bellarmine, have explained that often times God rewards the reprobate in this life for what little good they do since (in his foreknowledge) he knows they will be punished forever for their sins. Conversely, he punishes the elect for what little sins they commit in this life, since they will be rewarded eternally for the good they do.

This is summed up in Scripture here:

And here this same sentiment is spoken of beautifully by St. Thomas More:

In conclusion, we shouldn’t be expecting (or conditioning our faith) on God exacting justice from sinners in this life. Whatever injustices our society does not redress in this world will be redressed in the next (in Purgatory for those who have reconciled and in Hell for those who have not). Likewise, those suffering chastisements are not necessarily the unjust and vice versa.

:thumbsup:Excellent reply, thanks…