Purgatory and Isaiah 6

  • Thread starter Thread starter Roger12345
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Roger12345

Guest
In Isaiah chapter 6 we read that the Prophet Isaiah was taken into God’s presence and an
angel purified him by touching his lips with a coal. Based on this is it possable that purgatory can be instantaneous, or without suffering?

"5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged"
 
What makes you think this particular case was instantaneous or without suffering? His mouth was touched with a coal…that sounds neither instantaneous nor painless to me.
 
The sum total of official teaching of the church about Purgatory is that it exists as a process by which a person who accepts the love and forgiveness of God is made pure so they may enter Heaven where nothing impure can exist.

Some people complete the process before their deaths, but the Lord permits those who accept his love, friendship and forgiveness to receive some of this purification after their deaths.

It is described in the new testament as a “Refiners Fire” the burning away of all the straw, hay and wood to leave only the Gold and precious metals from which the person built their life.

While there has been much speculation and much artistic work to depict what purgatory is like, none of it is official teaching. the only official teaching is that it exists, it is probably unpleasant, and that we know almost nothing else.

While hell is described as an eternal burning fire that is never quenched and never burns out: Purgatory is a fire that refines. the Refinery needed to smelt and refine Gold is FAR hotter than the brimstone fire by which Hell is described.
But the Refiners Fire is an act of Gods Love, where Hell is the total absence of God.

I see purgatory as being like when you look into the eyes of a loved one who you have deeply hurt and apologise… seeing their pain and their forgiveness looking back at you. It Hurts. It requires deep humility to face them, admit your sin and beg their forgiveness.

As nothing which is not of God can enter heaven that moment of staring into His eyes and accepting His Judgment means letting him strip away all that is not of His making in our soul. All attachments to this world. All attachments to things of this world. Even our attachemnts to the people of this world and our own families. Especially where such attachemnts are not in full accord with His will. This has got to hurt. Saying Goodbye to all your Pride. all your emotions: grievances desires, loves and hates in this world.
 
In Isaiah chapter 6 we read that the Prophet Isaiah was taken into God’s presence and an angel purified him by touching his lips with a coal. Based on this is it possible that purgatory can be instantaneous, or without suffering?
Instantaneous is an interesting concept, perhaps a bit out of place…for ultimately we speak of a reality that is beyond time and space, in eternity. But it is not “instantaneous” in the sense that the soul being purified almost doesn’t notice. That’s not going to happen. We know from Scripture and Tradition that Purgatory is no place of comfort, and the souls that have been allowed to ask for our prayers have told us that the pains are no inferior to those of hell, except for the fact that they do not bear the greatest burden, eternal separation from God.

Now back to the coal and “without suffering”. Now, here is what burning coal looks like:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DCK1bLZQ-yc/T5HDkZ9fuXI/AAAAAAAaGB8/7cGsxu3KGmI/s250-c-k-no/Champaign%2BCoal%2B%26%2BStove%2BCo.

The temperature of the coals is over 1000 degrees F (535 degrees C). Now, coal does have low thermal conductivity, which means that some skilled individuals are able to touch coals or walk on them without getting burned. However, the skin of lips is different from the skin at the bottom of our feet. The protective covering over the epidermis of the lips is much thinner than the rest of the skin, and the glands that keep the skin moisturized are in fact absent. So yes, if burning coal touches someone’s lips, it hurts.
 
As mentioned, the Church doesn’t have a position on the “duration” of Purgatory. But as Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI) said, it’s unproductive to try to impose “time” onto the matter:*The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter [Purgatory] cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world. (Ratzinger, Eschatology, p. 230)*More Church quotes and details: What is Purgatory? 😉
 
I wish I could place burning coals on my lips and feel no pain… 😦
 
Isaiah’s statement that he is a man of unclean lips corresponds to Peter’s statement that he is a sinful man in Luke 5:8. The purification of Isaiah’s lips correspond to the washing of Peter’'s feet at the last supper in John 13.

Isaiah’s mission was to preach with his mouth and God purifies his mouth with a burning coal. Peter’s mission is be the Vicar of Christ on earth, to preach the Good news to all of creation and so God (in the person of Jesus) purifies Peter’s feet.

And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.” [8] And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (Isaiah 6:4-8)

Luke puts word’s similar to Isaiah’s “Woe!” statement into Peter’s mouth…

And when they had done this, they enclosed a great shoal of fish; and as their nets were breaking, they beckoned to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." (Luke 5:6-8)

St. John takes up the theme in the fourth Gospel written many years later. In John’s Gospel God doesn’t cleanse Peter’s lips but his feet. As a fisher of men, Peter’s feet come in contact with the earth, symbolic of Peter’s ministry to all the world, so instead of cleansing his lips, John has Jesus cleansing his feet.

He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will nderstand.” Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you." (John 13:6-10)

Both Isaiah and Peter start in the presence of God; Isiaih in a vision and Peter in the boat with Jesus. God asks Isiaih “Who shall I send?” and Jesus asks Peter to “Let down the net”. Both are sent. Both are cleansed, purified and consecrated for their mission. Both recognize that they are sinful and unclean, incapable of carrying out the mission on their own. Both are cleansed; the touching of Isaiah’s lips and the washing of the Apostle’s feet are what consecrates each to their respective vocation.

Incidentally, the fact that God purifies Isiaih and that Jesus purifies Peter is another indication that Jesus is God.

-Tim-
 
I wish I could place burning coals on my lips and feel no pain… 😦
For souls in purgatory, the absolute knowledge that they are saved and will one day see God is a great source of comfort, and they also help us through prayer of intercession. They rejoice in bearing the purification, in perfect imitation of Christ who willfully carried the cross.
 
I took purification to be instantaneous in the case of the Sounding of the Trumpet at the end of time when one and all will be transformed in the blink of an eye
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top