Purgatory and my dad

[Mort_Alz]

My father and I have been discussing points of the Catholic faith that he is has problems with. I am converting and he does not like it. His biggest beef that he has told me is purgatory. His argument goes thus:

“We do not need a purgatory, we are made perfect by Christ’s blood and that alone.” as if he separates the two.

I typically respond by saying he is debunking something that Catholics don’t believe. Purgatory is only possible because of Christ’s blood. We typically talk past each other on this point.

Recently, however, he has brought up something for me to chew on. It was an excellently stated point and left me in silence. That is this:

“When we die, our bodies go into the ground where they will decay, our spirits then go somewhere (presumably with Christ if we die in His graces). Then, at the general resurrection, our bodies are raised to life. New. Our spirits are then reunited with our bodies. No purification required. We are perfect because of Christ. Our bodies perfect by the power of his resurrection.”

I then responded by noting that our spirits govern our bodily instincts and just because my body is perfect, it doesn’t mean that my spirit doesn’t need any tweaking, too.

He then cited when Jesus said “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Left me in silence. I had nothing to respond with to that. He explained his view perfectly and I nearly accepted it.

However, I could not have accepted it without first seeking some Catholic counseling. Catholics have been defending the doctrine of purgatory for years. I’m sure they’ve run across this argument before. I would be a fool for rejecting such a long-held and widely held belief unless I considered the Catholic case again.

So, any thoughts?

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

Hi. My suggestion for you is to read the tract of purgatory offered in this site which is pretty good. It speaks about the “Two judgements” you are referring to (the particular one and the general one). Here is the link:

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

Here are also some quotes from the Church Fathers regarding purgatory if it helps you:

St. Gregory of Nyssa: “After his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice, and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire.”

St. Basil the Great (329 to 379 AD): “that the purgatorial fire may entirely feed on and devour it… It does not threaten utter ruin altogether, but it means cleansing according to the opinion of the Apostle Paul: ‘But he himself shall be saved yet as so through fire’” 1 Corinthians 3:15

St. John Chrysostom: “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.”

Cyprian (200 to 258 AD): It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord. (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

St. Caesarius of Arles (470-543AD): “If we neither return thanks to God in tribulation, nor redeem sins with good works, we shall stay in the Purgatorial fire until the above-named small sins be consumed like wood, hay and stubble … But some one says: I don’t mind how long I stay there if at length I shall arrive at eternal life. Let no one say this dearest brethren, because that Purgatory fire shall be severer than any punishment that can be either thought of, or seen, or felt in this world. How can anyone know whether he is about to pass through that fire for days and months or perhaps even for years?”

St. Jerome (347 - 419 AD): “…for every Mass devoutly celebrated, many souls leave Purgatory and fly to Heaven.”

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Patriarch of Alexandria: “All the tortures that one can conceive of in this world are refreshing compared with the least pain of Purgatory.”

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

I will let my brothers and sisters to say more on the matter. God Bless!

 

[Fidelis]

He then cited when Jesus said “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Left me in silence. I had nothing to respond with to that. He explained his view perfectly and I nearly accepted it…

…So, any thoughts?

Your father is engaging in proof-texting here, and is taking this verse out of context. In it’s proper context, it has nothing to do with Purgatory or the Resurrection. Rather, Jesus in saying this is referring to the fact that the Apostles, falling asleep at Gethsemane are not able to overcome the weakness of their bodies while they should be engaging in spiritual warfare by praying with Jesus at his hour of need.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

My father and I have been discussing points of the Catholic faith that he is has problems with. I am converting and he does not like it. His biggest beef that he has told me is purgatory. His argument goes thus:

“We do not need a purgatory, we are made perfect by Christ’s blood and that alone.” as if he separates the two.

I typically respond by saying he is debunking something that Catholics don’t believe. Purgatory is only possible because of Christ’s blood. We typically talk past each other on this point.

Recently, however, he has brought up something for me to chew on. It was an excellently stated point and left me in silence. That is this:

“When we die, our bodies go into the ground where they will decay, our spirits then go somewhere (presumably with Christ if we die in His graces). Then, at the general resurrection, our bodies are raised to life. New. Our spirits are then reunited with our bodies. No purification required. We are perfect because of Christ. Our bodies perfect by the power of his resurrection.”

I then responded by noting that our spirits govern our bodily instincts and just because my body is perfect, it doesn’t mean that my spirit doesn’t need any tweaking, too.

He then cited when Jesus said “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Left me in silence. I had nothing to respond with to that. He explained his view perfectly and I nearly accepted it.

However, I could not have accepted it without first seeking some Catholic counseling. Catholics have been defending the doctrine of purgatory for years. I’m sure they’ve run across this argument before. I would be a fool for rejecting such a long-held and widely held belief unless I considered the Catholic case again.

So, any thoughts?

It is not your Father, You or me who judge people.
It is Jesus Christ.
And he knows what to do.

 

[joclucsylv]

Get the book “The Bible Proves the Teachings of the Catholic Church”. I have referred to this book time and time again. Go to the following site and download and print chapters of the book for free including the one on purgatory!!

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_bible_and_the_catholic_church.php

This book has several pages using the bible to defend the doctirne of purgatory. Let me give you an example of what is written.

The last part of 1 Corinthians 3:15 says “If any man’s work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS:BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.” So we have a man whose works have been judged. His works are in fact burned and he suffers loss yet he is saved by fire.

Now let’s go to to the greek word zemisothesetai. It is translated as suffer loss. Forms of the same greek work zemioo are found in other passages in the bible. The word is used to mean punishment.

It is important to note that the Church ALWAYS refers to greek when interpreting the bible.

2 Macabbes 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.

There are many many other passages that this book points out that prove the teaching on purgatory.

The book also speaks of the writings of the Church fathers who wrote about purgatory.
St Augustine 421AD “That there should be some such fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired and either be discovered or left hiddden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater and lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish THROUGH A CERTAIN PURGATORIAL FIRE.”

 

[pablope]

My father and I have been discussing points of the Catholic faith that he is has problems with. I am converting and he does not like it. His biggest beef that he has told me is purgatory. His argument goes thus:

“We do not need a purgatory, we are made perfect by Christ’s blood and that alone.” as if he separates the two.

 

[joclucsylv]

2 Macabees 12:46 “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”

 

[Link0126]

If your father REALLY thinks we are made perfect in Christ’s blood than when does this exactly take place? Is your father perfect right now? Does he think he will be in this life? If not, than it must happen after this life but before reaching heaven, b/c nothing unclean can enter heaven. That is what purgatory is. The doctrine says nothing about it being a “third place” etc…

Catholics REALLY believe what the Bible says, “nothing unclean can enter heaven”, they REALLY believe what the Bible says, that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. We REALLY are made perfect through Christ’s blood not just DECLARED perfect. They have also logically and within the context of Scripture and Tradition given this concept a name which is Purgatory.

It makes perfect sense and the lack of it in Protestantism is a gaping theological hole of which many of them say “well, we are just DECLARED perfect”. As if God just pretends we aren’t unclean and lets us into heaven anyway.