Purgatory for real?

[thinkandmull]

In contemplating why someone would believe the Thomistic-Augustinian position on efficacious grace, and give up a sensible view of free will (in my opinion), it dawned on me that they probably do this from the feeling that “God WILL save me if He so desires”; so in a way its like Protestant’s “once saved, always saved”.

But the point on this thread is not those issues, but Purgatory. Would it be orthodox to tell Protestants that **whether ** anyone receives corrective punishment after death is open to speculation, but merely the **possibility **is not? I would ask them: do you believe God may or has punished you in this life? We Catholics, after all, do speak of doing your “Purgatory on earth”.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

In contemplating why someone would believe the Thomistic-Augustinian position on efficacious grace, and give up a sensible view of free will (in my opinion), it dawned on me that they probably do this from the feeling that “God WILL save me if He so desires”; so in a way its like Protestant’s “once saved, always saved”.

But the point on this thread is not those issues, but Purgatory. Would it be orthodox to tell Protestants that **whether ** anyone receives corrective punishment after death is open to speculation, but merely the **possibility **is not? I would ask them: do you believe God may or has punished you in this life? We Catholics, after all, do speak of doing your “Purgatory on earth”.

" Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridon”, 983). " newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#I

You should read the entire article. Yes, we have to believe in Purgatory, that in some manner there is after death a period of purgation for souls which are not yet perfect in God’s eyes.

Where then did Christ go when he went to preach the gospel to the those who had died before his coming, who had not been allowed into heaven yet? And what was the Bosom of Abraham which is spoken of in Luke 16:22-23, where Abraham tells Dives that an impassible gulf exists between him and Abraham? Where was Abraham then, he was not in heaven because Christ had not yet died.

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=68

Many of your questions, here and on other posts, can be answered by first consulting the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As they say, " If all else fails, read the directions. "

Linus2nd

 

[thinkandmull]

At least read my post before responding Linus. Many people, such as Jimmy Akin, say its not Dogma that there **are **actually people in hell, just that someone who dies in mortal sin will go there. In this thread I am not talking about the Old Testament, but whether God will let all of us have our Purgarory on earth

 

[Linusthe2nd]

At least read my post before responding Linus. Many people, such as Jimmy Akin, say its not Dogma that there **are **actually people in hell, just that someone who dies in mortal sin will go there. In this thread I am not talking about the Old Testament, but whether God will let all of us have our Purgarory on earth

I read it. You said the point was Purgatory. Yes, it exists. It is possible, most probable that most of those destined for heaven will wind up there. Is it possible that God will consider our suffering on earth a sufficient purgatory? Possible.

Linus2nd

 

[spedteacherita]

I would ask them: do you believe God may or has punished you in this life? We Catholics, after all, do speak of doing your “Purgatory on earth”.

One Protestant’s answer

At this point I don’t care whether I am in Purgatory (if there is such a place) or not…Can’t really change that. What I do know is that God does not punish us in this life. Look at what Job had to go through - was that punishment? Nope. It was Satan asking God if Job was actually as Godly of a man as He thought so God allowed those terrible things to happen.

As for punishing me on Judgement Day:

John 3:17-20

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

1 John 2:1-3

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.…

Romans 3:24-26

…24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.…

Just a few of the promises. Just so you know I wanted to answer your question - if anybody is unclear as to what I believe I would love to help make it clearer.

 

[GEddie]

Is it possible that Purgatory really is in Colorado?

Well, according to the map, it is…



(Couldn’t resist)

ICXC NIKA

 

[spedteacherita]

Is it possible that Purgatory really is in Colorado?

Well, according to the map, it is…



(Couldn’t resist)

ICXC NIKA

 

[oldcelt]

Many of your questions, here and on other posts, can be answered by first consulting the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As they say, " If all else fails, read the directions. "

Isn’t that amazing? Though we may disagree on the interpretation.

John

 

[eazyduzit]

I would add one more promise from Heb. 7:25. “Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing that He ever liveth to make intercession for them”.

This means that Jesus has provided a completed salvation for me, meaning there is nothing else that can be added to it that could improve it. The Greek for "uttermost is “panteles”, meaning “all complete or perfect”. Thus if I die in faith, there is nothing to prevent me from entering heaven because I have the perfection of Christ. It is 100% about what Christ has done and not about me. All I could do is spoil the perfection.

 

[CarmelJerome]

I would add one more promise from Heb. 7:25. “Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing that He ever liveth to make intercession for them”.

This means that Jesus has provided a completed salvation for me, meaning there is nothing else that can be added to it that could improve it. The Greek for "uttermost is “panteles”, meaning “all complete or perfect”. Thus if I die in faith, there is nothing to prevent me from entering heaven because I have the perfection of Christ. It is 100% about what Christ has done and not about me. All I could do is spoil the perfection.

This is the root of that falsehood most deadly to real repentance, the idea that Jesus’ perfect redemptive suffering was meant to eliminate the suffering of the faithful in this life and the next. His sacrifice relieves us from hopeless, eternal suffering; but it makes us part of His suffering, a suffering which comes through and with faith, hope and charity. Purgatory is a hopeful teaching, and a doctrine that wholly eliminates the cheapened notion of grace as a.get-out-of-jail-free.card which one gets.when one simply believes in Christ. Complete union with Christ in such a depth and manner that the pains that remain to accomplish that union are.eliminated is possible; but a chief part of union with Christ is the ever-growing realization of how much our sins attached us to this world to begin with.

 

[eazyduzit]

This is the root of that falsehood most deadly to real repentance, the idea that Jesus’ perfect redemptive suffering was meant to eliminate the suffering of the faithful in this life and the next. His sacrifice relieves us from hopeless, eternal suffering; but it makes us part of His suffering, a suffering which comes through and with faith, hope and charity. Purgatory is a hopeful teaching, and a doctrine that wholly eliminates the cheapened notion of grace as a.get-out-of-jail-free.card which one gets.when one simply believes in Christ. Complete union with Christ in such a depth and manner that the pains that remain to accomplish that union are.eliminated is possible; but a chief part of union with Christ is the ever-growing realization of how much our sins attached us to this world to begin with.

Not so fast my friend. To imply that our own suffering can in any way justify us to a God of infinite holyness is truly a cheep shot. It was His precious blood poured out on the mercy seat that took our sin away forever. You cannot do that. Our blood is not pure. Heb 9 22 says “without the shedding of blood is no remission”. Now think, is there any blood in purgatory? Give me a Pentacostal break here.
The only suffering that we join with Christ is that which is the result of our righteous and true testimony for the Gospel and our witness of Christ,not on the account of sin.

 

[rinnie]

In contemplating why someone would believe the Thomistic-Augustinian position on efficacious grace, and give up a sensible view of free will (in my opinion), it dawned on me that they probably do this from the feeling that “God WILL save me if He so desires”; so in a way its like Protestant’s “once saved, always saved”.

But the point on this thread is not those issues, but Purgatory. Would it be orthodox to tell Protestants that **whether ** anyone receives corrective punishment after death is open to speculation, but merely the **possibility **is not? I would ask them: do you believe God may or has punished you in this life? We Catholics, after all, do speak of doing your “Purgatory on earth”.

I believe you can indeed do purgatory in this world. But few do, how many people can you swear to that when they died they are indeed have no desire to sin whatsoever and perfectly united to God in all ways. But with that said it is possible.

With that said I totally disagree with you on God saying you if he desires. The Church teaches us God totally desires all to go to heaven and be saved for eternal life with him.

God already desired for us to be saved and sent down his Son to make that possible. Now it is for us to reach out and desire to want that Grace.

 

[rinnie]

I read it. You said the point was Purgatory. Yes, it exists. It is possible, most probable that most of those destined for heaven will wind up there. Is it possible that God will consider our suffering on earth a sufficient purgatory? Possible.

Linus2nd

It is indeed possible. Jesus by his death on the Cross showed us Salvation is possible by the Church.

In the O.T. we had no perfect sacrifice for our sins, that is why they were waiting for Jesus to make the perfect sacrifice that was promised. We call it first Abram, lost us Salvation. New Abram, Jesus gave it back to us.

But the reason we know it is possible is First, because Jesus showed it possible in our human nature, and second he gave us the Church to confess and be free from deadly sins. or as we call Mortal sin.

As I stated I believe it has been done, and if I could GUESS, in our lifetime, I believe Pope John Paul ll did it. But again no one knows the mind of God. But with his life and how he lived I see him as being for sure on the right road, and believed he made it to the finish line.

But again it could be Joe the butcher that made it.

 

[rinnie]

Not so fast my friend. To imply that our own suffering can in any way justify us to a God of infinite holyness is truly a cheep shot. It was His precious blood poured out on the mercy seat that took our sin away forever. You cannot do that. Our blood is not pure. Heb 9 22 says “without the shedding of blood is no remission”. Now think, is there any blood in purgatory? Give me a Pentacostal break here.
The only suffering that we join with Christ is that which is the result of our righteous and true testimony for the Gospel and our witness of Christ,not on the account of sin.

I disagree with this, I believe that even our suffering from our own desire from sin, Jesus is joined to us in that suffering. Although he does not rejoice in our sin, I disagree that he does not share in our suffering, and walk with us hand and hand.

My best example with that would be a drug addict or alcoholic. I believe he walks hand in hand with them daily in their struggle, and in times carries them.

 

[thinkandmull]

Even a Catholic can believe with enough trust a person can have a pleasant Purgatory:
contemplativehomeschool.com/2014/08/22/st-thereses-daring-teaching-purgatory/

I would add one more promise from Heb. 7:25. “Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing that He ever liveth to make intercession for them”.

This means that Jesus has provided a completed salvation for me, meaning there is nothing else that can be added to it that could improve it. The Greek for "uttermost is “panteles”, meaning “all complete or perfect”. Thus if I die in faith, there is nothing to prevent me from entering heaven because I have the perfection of Christ. It is 100% about what Christ has done and not about me. All I could do is spoil the perfection.