Purgatory/ Scipture Verses

[Cruxis117]

Maybe I should check out the Catholic Answers tracts and see if there is anything, but long story short, I have a Lutheran friend who isn’t convinced of Purgatory. I obviously mentioned 2 Maccabees, but obviously he doesn’t accept deuterocanonical books. So, I was wondering if anyone could give me Scripture verses from Scripture that the Catholics and Lutherans agree on (their 66 books, rather than our 73). Anyone have any ideas?

 

[James224]

Maybe I should check out the Catholic Answers tracts and see if there is anything, but long story short, I have a Lutheran friend who isn’t convinced of Purgatory. I obviously mentioned 2 Maccabees, but obviously he doesn’t accept deuterocanonical books. So, I was wondering if anyone could give me Scripture verses from Scripture that the Catholics and Lutherans agree on (their 66 books, rather than our 73). Anyone have any ideas?

1 Cor 3:11-15 The wood, hay & stubble signify our works but notice in verse 15: “If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE.” Not his works but **HE **shall be saved by fire. Also, verse 13 says, “…For the day of the Lord shall declare it…” The Day of the Lord is the day of your death so this happens AFTER DEATH.

1 Pet 3:19 Jesus speaks to the spirits in PRISON. You see this “Prison” also in Matt 5:25-26. In Greek it’s Phulake or Phulaken. This is a spiritual prison. If you look at Mat 5 in context you will see that first Christ speaks of the souls that will be in heaven, then the souls of the damned and then those that will be in prison - so this is not a physical prison on earth. Notice in 1 Pet 3:19 and it’s after Christ’s descent into Hell.

This is a start.

 

[Cruxis117]

1 Cor 3:11-15 The wood, hay & stubble signify our works but notice in verse 15: “If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE.” Not his works but **HE **shall be saved by fire. Also, verse 13 says, “…For the day of the Lord shall declare it…” The Day of the Lord is the day of your death so this happens AFTER DEATH.

1 Pet 3:19 Jesus speaks to the spirits in PRISON. You see this “Prison” also in Matt 5:25-26. In Greek it’s Phulake or Phulaken. This is a spiritual prison. If you look at Mat 5 in context you will see that first Christ speaks of the souls that will be in heaven, then the souls of the damned and then those that will be in prison - so this is not a physical prison on earth. Notice in 1 Pet 3:19 and it’s after Christ’s descent into Hell.

This is a start.

It sounds good. He also mentioned the argument that, “Why do we need Purgatory? Did Christ not cleanse us of our sins?” I don’t know how to fully answer that.

 

[James224]

It sounds good. He also mentioned the argument that, “Why do we need Purgatory? Did Christ not cleanse us of our sins?” I don’t know how to fully answer that.

Is 6:5-7 shows that Isaiah, when in God’s Presence, realized his uncleanliness and his need for purifying. Isaiah was a holy man before he had this vision. (see Is 1:25, Is 4:4) It’s still Christ cleansing us from our sins as it implies in 1 Pet 3:19. Even our inclination to sin has to be purified.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

It sounds good. He also mentioned the argument that, “Why do we need Purgatory? Did Christ not cleanse us of our sins?” I don’t know how to fully answer that.

We could get all fancy with Greek, Jewish wedding imagery, yada yada, but there’s a pretty quick argument that gets your main point across in a fairly strong way.

Protestants believe in imputed righteousness; that Jesus’ righteousness covers our sin, in a sense. Basically, God “declares” us clean. However, in Revelation 21:27 (NIV) states:

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

It’s pretty clear from the above that you, as an individual, have to be perfect to enter, because impurity doesn’t enter, declared or otherwise. Another good thing to keep in mind is that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being a cup that was clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. Based off these concepts, we know that you have to be perfect to enter heaven. Now this is where you look your friend straight in the eye and ask: “Do you think you are as perfect as Jesus?” He will answer no. You ask “Then how are you getting into heaven, according to Revelation? If you’re saved, and you’re not perfect here, then it has to happen at some point after you die, or you’re not getting in.” Let him muse on that for a moment.

 

[James224]

We could get all fancy with Greek, Jewish wedding imagery, yada yada, but there’s a pretty quick argument that gets your main point across in a fairly strong way.

Protestants believe in imputed righteousness; that Jesus’ righteousness covers our sin, in a sense. Basically, God “declares” us clean. However, in Revelation 21:27 (NIV) states:

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

It’s pretty clear from the above that you, as an individual, have to be perfect to enter, because impurity doesn’t enter, declared or otherwise. Another good thing to keep in mind is that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being a cup that was clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. Based off these concepts, we know that you have to be perfect to enter heaven. Now this is where you look your friend straight in the eye and ask: “Do you think you are as perfect as Jesus?” He will answer no. You ask “Then how are you getting into heaven, according to Revelation? If you’re saved, and you’re not perfect here, then it has to happen at some point after you die, or you’re not getting in.” Let him muse on that for a moment.

Very good! Actually I was trying to find that quote. Thanks!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I haven’t seen this offered as a Church interpretation but I think that psalm 118 refers to Purgatory:

17 I shall not die, but I shall live, and recount the deeds of the LORD. 18 The LORD has chastened me sorely, but he has not given me over to death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness, that I may enter through them and give thanks to the LORD. 20 This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter through it.

Psalm 118:17-20 It appears to discuss a period of chastening before entering into Heaven through the gate of righteousness.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

1 corinthians 3:15 is a good one, especially in the Greek, but I particularly like Jewish wedding imagery, where the bride takes a cleansing bath prior to going with the groom to the father’s house. Then there is the fact that the priest had to cleanse himself prior to entering the holy of holies, and the temple was the Jewish microcosm not only of the universe, but the varying stages of the spiritual life as you draw closer to God. Another thing to keep in mind is that God is referred to as a refiner’s fire, with “burning love,” and the seraphims that surround the throne mean “burning ones.” A refiner’s fire burns away impurites, So explain purgatory less as a *place *, so much as a *process *, of having your imperfections burned away by the fiery love of God as you draw near to him after death. There you go. Purgatory. It fits in so ridiculously well with every aspect of Jewish thought, Scripture, and what we know about God that I am truly surprised the idea is so repugnant to some.

 

[Luke65]

Well, there are a lot of good examples here, but do check out Scripture Catholic. It has many more Scriptures on Purgatory, along with related teachings from the early Church. God bless.

 

[Julian0404]

Luke 16: 19-31 The story of Lazarus the poor man and the Rich man. Lazarus goes to the “bosom of Abraham”, the rich man goes to the netherworld.

This story is told by JESUS. These are HIS words.

 

[James224]

1 corinthians 3:15 is a good one, especially in the Greek, but I particularly like Jewish wedding imagery, where the bride takes a cleansing bath prior to going with the groom to the father’s house. Then there is the fact that the priest had to cleanse himself prior to entering the holy of holies, and the temple was the Jewish microcosm not only of the universe, but the varying stages of the spiritual life as you draw closer to God. Another thing to keep in mind is that God is referred to as a refiner’s fire, with “burning love,” and the seraphims that surround the throne mean “burning ones.” A refiner’s fire burns away impurites, So explain purgatory less as a *place *, so much as a *process *, of having your imperfections burned away by the fiery love of God as you draw near to him after death. There you go. Purgatory. It fits in so ridiculously well with every aspect of Jewish thought, Scripture, and what we know about God that I am truly surprised the idea is so repugnant to some.

Again, very good! The refiner’s fire is in Mal 3:2-4. The wedding imagery is good. Other places that point to Purgatory are Heb 12:29, Matt 12:32 & Ps 65:12 DRV (66:12) other versions.

 

[COPLAND_3]

the 1 Corinthians 3 passage has always been the most convincing to me. Even when I was a Baptist it made me cringe because it had Purgatory written all over it. I don’t care too much about using the Gospel passage about ‘paying the last penny’ because in my opinion it is allegorizing that passage in order to turn it into a Purgatory verse. In a debate it won’t convince a literalist non-catholic. The Maccabees passage is very good in the sense that it shows that those in the afterlife can be helped by those living on earth, and since people in Hell cannot be helped, it would have to be Purgatory. But that passage won’t get you too far with a non-Catholic.

But word of warning, if you want to convince a non-Catholic it usually requires convincing them that you need tradition along with Scripture because the Bible alone is not enough since there are just as many interpretations of the Bible as there are words in it. But when you go to the Fathers of the Church it shows how the Ancient Church understood the Bible and the Universal Faith.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . … The Maccabees passage is very good in the sense that it shows that those in the afterlife can be helped by those living on earth, and since people in Hell cannot be helped, it would have to be Purgatory. But that passage won’t get you too far with a non-Catholic. . . .

While the non-Catholic may not accept Maccabees as Scripture, I think he has to accept it as history of Jewish Practice. It is the basis

52 Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year, * 53 they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering which they had built. 54 At the very season and on the very day that the Gentiles had profaned it, it was dedicated with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals. 55 All the people fell on their faces and worshiped and blessed Heaven, who had prospered them. 56 So they celebrated the dedication of the altar for eight days, and offered burnt offerings with gladness; they offered a sacrifice of deliverance and praise. 57 They decorated the front of the temple with golden crowns and small shields; they restored the gates and the chambers for the priests, and furnished them with doors. 58 There was very great gladness among the people, and the reproach of the Gentiles was removed. 59 Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev

[1 Maccabees 4:52-59]. of the Feast of the Dedication mentioned in John 10:22-23

22 It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; 23* it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.

 

[COPLAND_3]

While the non-Catholic may not accept Maccabees as Scripture, I think he has to accept it as history of Jewish Practice. It is the basis [1 Maccabees 4:52-59]. of the Feast of the Dedication mentioned in John 10:22-23

Yeah, depends a lot on the individual, if you get one who is willing to think outside the box for 3 seconds then they might listen to a common sense argument, but if its one of those ‘old time’ Bible thumper KJV only folks then they usually keep the blinders on.

 

[Craig_W]

1 Cor 3:11-15 The wood, hay & stubble signify our works but notice in verse 15: “If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE.” Not his works but **HE **shall be saved by fire. Also, verse 13 says, “…For the day of the Lord shall declare it…” The Day of the Lord is the day of your death so this happens AFTER DEATH.

1 Pet 3:19 Jesus speaks to the spirits in PRISON. You see this “Prison” also in Matt 5:25-26. In Greek it’s Phulake or Phulaken. This is a spiritual prison. If you look at Mat 5 in context you will see that first Christ speaks of the souls that will be in heaven, then the souls of the damned and then those that will be in prison - so this is not a physical prison on earth. Notice in 1 Pet 3:19 and it’s after Christ’s descent into Hell.

This is a start.

Just to share part of our conversion story (me and my wife): I was shocked one night when our *Baptist Pastor *preached a sermon on I Corinthians 3:11-15. He said everything but that this scripture described purgatory, even though he inferred that it did indeed teach purgatory. This became one of many reasons we converted to the Catholic Church in 2006.

Craig

 

[MoonChild02]

Don’t forget Matthew 12:32:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If there is no Purgatory, then how can anyone expect to be forgiven in the age to come? Why would Jesus have mentioned that if it weren’t possible? The answer is that He wouldn’t have. Therefore, Purgatory must exist.

Also, if there Jesus took all punishment for our sins on the Cross, like many Protestants insist, there would be no need for our temporal punishment, mentioned in many places in the Bible, including Hebrews 12:1–12:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. For the sake of the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God. Consider how he endured such opposition from sinners, in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.

You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: “My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.”

Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not (then) submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees.

There are a couple of Catholic Answers This Rock articles on how to defend the existence of Purgatory to those who don’t believe it, which include Bible verses.
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

 

[inkaneer]

It sounds good. He also mentioned the argument that, “Why do we need Purgatory? Did Christ not cleanse us of our sins?” I don’t know how to fully answer that.

Ask him this. If Christ cleansed us from our sins why do people still die or get sick? Wasn’t that one of the effects of Adam’s sin that we inherited? If Christ did it all [as protestants like to say] then He should have taken care of all that baggage we still carry around since the time of Adam.

Next ask him this, should a person profit from his sin? If a man steals money can he be forgiven and still keep the money? It that morally right? Or does he have to make restitution? Then tell him that purgatory is restitution for sins committed and for which restitution has not been made in this life. For until restitution for sin is made the sinner maybe forgiven but he is still unclean and Scripture says of heaven that nothing unclean will enter it. So tell your Lutheran friend that he better hope there is a purgatory because without it he and everybody else has a problem.

 

[edjco]

You may also want to do a bit of research on the Mourner’s Kaddish- a Jewish prayer for the dead as I understand it which aids the soul of the dead person.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Good answers so far. I like to give a 3-fold step-by-step:* Even Christians still sin ( Ecc 7:20 , Gal 2:11-13 ) which causes a stain to the soul ( Eph 5:27 ), such as the drive to repeat the sin (e.g. Jn 8:34 ).

• But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10 , Heb 12:23 , Rv 21:27 ).
• So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has tendencies for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God. This purgation can only take place by the power of the Cross.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Protestants believe in imputed righteousness; that Jesus’ righteousness covers our sin, in a sense. Basically, God “declares” us clean.

This is perhaps the biggest reason why a Protestant has trouble accepting Purgatory. They believe being “declared righteous” leaves for no further sanctification. But there are at least 2 responses to the error in that line of thinking:

#1 - as someone earlier mentioned, examples like Hebrews 12 shows how God chastises those who hare already His “sons” for the sake of their “holiness.” This contradicts the Protestant idea that there is no need for further holiness.

#2 - imputed righteousness is a false idea which can be disproved from Scripture. Although I think some of the stronger passages are those that refer to Jesus healing the sinner. Remember when Jesus healed the paralytic and asked the crowd “which is easier, to say stand up and rise or that your sins are forgiven”? (Luke 5:17-26). What Jesus was demonstrating, is that what He showed visibly was the same thing that happened spiritually, so that the onlookers would believe. In other words, Jesus truly does heal. He doesn’t just “declare” that the sinner is righteous. He didn’t say to the paralytic, “I declare you healed” while leaving him on the stretcher. He truly heals the infirmities of the body and the soul. Imputed righteousness incorrectly asserts that Jesus does not truly heal the soul, but that He instead “declares” it healed.