Purgatory.

[Stephentlig]

Purgatory
Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 … God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 … might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 … preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 … “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 … sacrifice for the dead. (not in Protestant Bibles)
2 Tim 1:15-18 … prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 … mortal/venial sins

I gave this to a group of protestents and they said I gave no explaination behind them, but isnt the explaination already evident?

one guy said this

''1 John 1:7 (NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

We are made PURE from ALL sin by the blood of Christ…not just past sins…but ALL…so saying that we need even more cleansing after we die is saying that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough to get the job done right…and if that were the case…what’s the point of the sacrifice, or even our faith, at all?’’

what would I answer to this?

 

[Howie01]

Stephentlig:

Purgatory
Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 … God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 … might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 … preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 … “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 … sacrifice for the dead. (not in Protestant Bibles)
2 Tim 1:15-18 … prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 … mortal/venial sins

I gave this to a group of protestents and they said I gave no explaination behind them, but isnt the explaination already evident?

Evident to whom?

Stephentlig:

one guy said this

''1 John 1:7 (NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

We are made PURE from ALL sin by the blood of Christ…not just past sins…but ALL…so saying that we need even more cleansing after we die is saying that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough to get the job done right…and if that were the case…what’s the point of the sacrifice, or even our faith, at all?’’

what would I answer to this?

You should believe it.

 

[Stephentlig]

Are you saying I should beleive what he said to me? isnt he trying to prove that purgatory is wrong?

or are you saying that I should say to him ‘‘you should beleive it?’’

God bless
Stephen

 

[AndyF]

Stephentlig:

Indeed, and nothing would have been more futile than Jesus after his resurrection telling his apostles that “whatever sins they forgive are forgiven and sins they retain are retained”.
Otherwise if the case had been hopeless, why bother.

Jesus re-established man’s friendship with God. From then on it becomes our task to remain in that friendship. The Sacrament of Penance was benevolently given to unworthy man to reestablish that friendship after deadly sin is committed, and one of the riskiest errors one can make is to believe that one is permanently saved simply by Jesus’s redemption.

Andy

 

[Godfollower]

What you’re talking about is a basic Protestant misunderstanding of Purgatory.

We know from Scripture that nothing unclean can enter Heaven:

The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there, but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies.

Rev. 21:26-27 (describing “the holy city, a new Jerusalem,coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,” per verses 2-3).

So, if you’re destined for Heaven (a/k/a “if you’ve been saved”) but are still unclean at your death, what will happen? Obviously: you’ll be made clean. That is, you’ll be purged of your sins and your tendency to sin. What do we call the moment of purging you? Purgatory.

The Church does not teach that you can go to Purgatory instead of Heaven. Purgatory is not a “third” destination in the afterlife. All we know is that (A) some people will go to Hell; (B) some people will go straight to Heaven, having died clean (e.g., by dying immediately after Baptism washed them clean); and (C) some people will go to Heaven but will have to be cleansed first. They will then, having been cleansed, enter Heaven. As Paul said, “the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:15). If the cleansing process is painful (like the removal of an abcessed tooth), so be it; it’ll be good for me in the end.

This does not deny the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus; rather, Purgatory (that is, the after-death purgation of sin and the tendency to sin from us prior to our entry to Heaven) is made possibly ONLY by Christ’s sacrifice for us.

To put it another way: Jesus died once for all of us, and His singular gift cleanses us all of all of our sins. Purgatory is merely one instance of that cleansing.

Or you can believe as the Protestants do, that Rev. 21:26-27 is incorrect, and unclean things will enter Heaven, with their sins “covered up” (what they sometimes analogize to “snow-covered dung heaps”). We believe that the entire Bible is correct, not just selected parts.

 

[Howie01]

Stephentlig:

Are you saying I should beleive what he said to me?

Yes.

Stephentlig:

isnt he trying to prove that purgatory is wrong?

Yes, and I agree with him.

My advice to you is to understand why you believe the teaching of purgatory to be true. ISTM that you don’t really know why you believe that it is, but you simply believe that it is.

I say that on the basis of your incredulity that in your mentioned encounter, only you see the verses cited as self-evident truths of the existence of purgatory.

 

[mijac]

''1 John 1:7 (NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.:

This verse does not tell us how we are prufied. Purgatory is Gods mercy purification proces through Christ.

We are made PURE from ALL sin by the blood of Christ…not just past sins…but ALL…so saying that we need even more cleansing after we die is saying that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough to get the job done right…and if that were the case…what’s the point of the sacrifice, or even our faith, at all?’’

what would I answer to this?

Purgatory doesn’t deny that Jesus sacrifice wasn’t enough. We need a reality check, If Jesus Sarifice covered everything, we would no longer have suffering or death in the world now, this will not be done away with until Christ returns.

One must understand that Scripture teaches that there are two major consequences of sin. One is the Spiritual/Eternal Consequences of Sin. This is the death of the Soul Eternal damnation. The Blood Atonement on the Cross is complete and has removed this consequence as an absolutely necessary consequence of sin. The second consequence of sin is the Temporal/material consequence of Sin. Both God’s justice and mercy requires satisfaction for sin. The forgiveness of sins the atonement for sins does not cover all temporal consequences of sin which must include cleansing of the soul of all attachment and defilement’s due to sin and restitution and amends. Hence as most all Christians will acknowledge after a person is forgiven-- there still remains the necessity of restitution, such as when someone steals that which was stolen must be returned or made up for.

. Example of the nature of Temporal and Eternal consequences to sin in the world in which we live:
If I were to take an innocent life, an objectively gravely sinful matter (one of the three conditions for mortal sin), under the subjective conditions of mortal sin (full knowledge, full consent of the will), and died unrepentant, I would go to Hell. My going to Hell would be the eternal consequence of my sin.

The temporal consequences of that sin range from the death of the innocent person; the suffering of my family who endured the shame and ramifications of my arrest and incarceration or enduring capital punishment; the effects of the loss of the innocent person on the family of the innocent person; the costs to the community of the loss of the innocent person; the costs to the community of litigation; the spiritual effects on the weaker members of the community whose view of the world.

. **It is as St. Augustine states: " The temporal effects of repented sins that are not paid for in life through the effects of natural law, personal penance, penance given by the priest at Confession, or mystical penances given to me by God, are paid for in Purgatory." St. Augustine, in City of God (A.D. 419), **

 

[mijac]

Purgatory
Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 … God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 … might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 … preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 … “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 … sacrifice for the dead. (not in Protestant Bibles)
2 Tim 1:15-18 … prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 … mortal/venial sins

I gave this to a group of protestents and they said I gave no explaination behind them, but isnt the explaination already evident?

:

One must use the four rules for interpreting scripture, rule two is always pay attention to the church fathers. One cannot suddenly devolop new interpretations for Scripture or eliminate what has all been laid out before, that is the reason for such separation each protester/protestant developing their own interpretations their own meanings of Scripture… Example:
1 Cor 3:15… temporary agony.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15, “if his work abides which he has built thereon he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” Haydock commentary Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment from the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and is such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time)
“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3:11-15);but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, andhay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.”
Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577
“The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame.” Lactantius, The Divine Institutes,7:21(A.D. 307),in ANF,VII:217

THE CITY OF GOD.
St Augustine
Book XXI
Chapter 21.-Of Those Who Assert that All Catholics Who Continue in the Faith Even Though by the Depravity of Their Lives They Have Merited Hell Fire, Shall Be Saved on Account of the “Foundation” Of Their Faith. There are some, too, who found upon the expression of Scripture, "He that endureth to the end shall be saved,"43 and who promise salvation only to those who continue in the Church catholic; and though such persons have lived badly, yet, say they, they shall be saved as by fire through virtue of the foundation of which the apostle says, "For other foundation hath no man laid than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day of the Lord shall declare it, for it shall be revealed by fire; and each man’s work shall be proved of what sort it is. If any man’s work shall endure which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. But if any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire."44

ONE CAN LAY OUT THE CHURCH FATHERS TEACHINGS ON SCRIPTURE FOR MOST ALL CATHOLIC TEACHING…