Purgatory.....

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I have 1-2 words= GRACE Alone…
And what makes you think that souls undergoing purgation aren’t experiencing the Grace of Christ preparing each for the Beatific Vision? This earlier post of yours indicates some Catholic understanding of Grace, but you seem to have lost that understanding:
wow. that’s deep… But I think protestants don’t understand GRACE… I mean, they think that grace is just some kind of liscence to sin or something like that. But grace is not something static. I mean, SACRAMENTS are the means of grace=the 7 sacraments of the catholic church.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7451599&postcount=3
 
But… Luther rejected the Idea of purgatory…

I believe that when we die, our works will be judged-the bema seat judgement… that’s in 1st Corinthians 3…
Luther is not Catholic…are you protestant? because your info says Catholic.
the church held purgatory as a belief always, even if not always a doctrine, but it is now a doctrine and must be believed,
and what? some guy comes along and says he doesn’t believe in purgatory(among other things) and therefore it’s true?
you know, one thing the Catholic church’s beliefs are greatly founded on are miracles, and there are many many miracles(or visions) connected with purgatory, which you can read about in books like this - tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/694

or if you need biblical bases for purgatory, aside from the long list i gave you, check out this book here - tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/784
you say purgatory is not biblical, but i think it’s been more than proven otherwise by everyone here, and it would be very beneficial for you to listen.
perhaps you should be reading the teachings of our church fathers, and the saints, and other good catholic literature…but listening to guys like Luther isn’t gunna help you in your Catholic faith, he was a heretic, and you need to be very careful in that regard.
i don’t think you are a heretic, i think you are just confused, and you need to educate yourself from good Catholic sources, such as the ones i listed in my last post.
 
But… Luther rejected the Idea of purgatory…

I believe that when we die, our works will be judged-the bema seat judgement… that’s in 1st Corinthians 3…
*Hi Jason,
I do not know if I am understanding what you are saying here.
Would you mind elaberating for me?
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growin up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is becasue of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growin up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is becasue of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…
You should go to Mass, but you should not receive Communion because you aren’t really in communion unless you do assent to everything Jesus taught His disciples–the Church.

You have before you a group of very well informed Catholics who will be happy to answer all of your questions.
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growin up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is becasue of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…/
 
Jason,

It may help you to know that the Jews also (and did before Christ) believe in something similar which we happen to call Purgatory.
I’m sure you are also aware that Jesus was Himself a Jew, and therefore would have believed in a state of cleansing after death.

Do a search for the Mourner’s Kaddish. These are prayers and acts that Jews do for the benefit of the dead person’s soul. So if there is no state we know of as Purgatory, why would Jews practice this belief? And why did not Jesus, as a Jew, not comment that this practice was wrong? And why did Jesus preach to the ‘spirits in prison’? Where was this ‘prison’ that Scripture speaks of? It certainly was not Heaven or Hell, so there must be another place…

If I may quote someone, (don’t remember who wrote it) “The belief in Purgatory is indeed Scriptural. Denial of the existence of Purgatory is itself, a modern, man-made belief.”
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growin up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is becasue of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…
No, but the mass is the ultimate sign of communion of faith. If the mass means that much to you, and that is great, perhaps you should start studying the faith closely, so understand what the mass is all about. If the mass is that important to you, why the defiant rejection? It seems like you would want a closer communion of faith if it is that important.

As to purgatory, it seems reassuring that God does not stop working on us just because we happen to die.
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growing up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is because of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…
*Dear Jason…

I can not answer for you if you should stop going or not.
All I can tell you is that one of the biggest reasons I had such a hard time getting back to going to church again is because I was not sure if I agreed with all dogmas and teachings of the catholic faith.
I felt that if I started going to church again then I would be professing in a faith that I might not agree with and I felt that would make me a hypocrite.
On the flip side off that thought, I also understood that I was never formally educated in the catholic faith or the teachings of her dogmas. In thinking about that I realized that the people who put these dogmas and teachings of the church together have centuries of learning behind them that they themselves have done nothing but commit their lives to studding, learning and teaching.
So it made me think. Who should I trust more, myself who really did not have a clue, or some one who was educated in the subject?
I was in a turmoil when I first stepped into His church again. The Gospel reading was of the man who in asking Jesus to cure His daughter had said; “I believe, help my unbelief!”
So I closed my eyes and said the same prayer to Him.
What I have been learning is that I really did not have a clear understanding of what the church actually teaches and what her dogmas really say. I am learning and as far as I understand them, I agree with them.
Yes I have had to make a few adjustments in my life and change how I do things but because of the understanding of what the church teaches and in understanding the whys of what she teaches it has helped me accept what she teaches.
Trust me, I will never claim I understand everything she teaches us…but I do know I want to understand so I keep trying and make the adjustments as I go along so that I do understand and agree with the church’s teachings…But trust me…it is not easy but I have grown spiritually so much…but I believe that spiritual growth is some of the hardest and most painful work one has to go through…but if we want to be justified in our faith I believe we have to give it our 100% effort to understand so that we can agree with what the church teaches us.
Sometimes I believe it does call for us to have blind faith and trust.
I personally find having blind faith and trust to be the hardest, darkest and scariest thing to accept…
But,
To me this is the way we are justified in our faith.
This is the faith that produces works…
This is what I understand purgatory/purgation of our sinful nature to be…
And the only one who gives me the strength to grow spiritual and to keep growing spiritually is God Himself through His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
So I try to stay as close to Him as I possible can by continuing to go to church as often as I am able to…

I hope and pray this makes sense…or helps in some way…

With my prayers,
 
well what you are describing is not even Purgatory… as Purgatory does not remove mortal sins, but the effects of sin, such as attachments, imperfections, not enough love for God, bad habits, etc… .it purifies the soul of an imperfect love for God so the person would be able to be in Heaven

Purgatory is for temporal punishment and the effects of sin, NOT the guilt of sin - in fact mortal sins must be forgiven on earth… and only those who have received salvation go to Purgatory… it’s not a “second chance”

thirdly, it happens BY the Cross and grace and Christ’s Sacrifice… that’s why when we offer the Mass (the sacrifice) to the Father for souls in Purgatory, they receive extra grace to go to Heaven

Please try to read more about Purgatory because your understanding of it is not correct

God bless 🙂
 
well what you are describing is not even Purgatory… as Purgatory does not remove mortal sins, but the effects of sin, such as attachments, imperfections, not enough love for God, bad habits, etc… .it purifies the soul of an imperfect love for God so the person would be able to be in Heaven

Purgatory is for temporal punishment and the effects of sin, NOT the guilt of sin - in fact mortal sins must be forgiven on earth… and only those who have received salvation go to Purgatory… it’s not a “second chance”

thirdly, it happens BY the Cross and grace and Christ’s Sacrifice… that’s why when we offer the Mass (the sacrifice) to the Father for souls in Purgatory, they receive extra grace to go to Heaven

Please try to read more about Purgatory because your understanding of it is not correct

God bless 🙂
Hi Monica,

I do not believe I disagree with anything that you are saying here if I am understanding you correctly.
I guess maybe I am just looking for some clarifications.

It is my understanding that as we let God perfect our imperfect love for Him, through purification and working with Him, we grow and begin to understanding and come to know what sin is. When we come to understand what sin is and realize our sin we need to seek reconciliation and turn away from it. Where I come to know and understand what sin is is through His Word as taught to me by His Church and where I find the strength to keep trying not to sin and healing from sin is from Jesus Christ Himself.
It is also my understanding that this purification of our imperfect love for God can begin in this life time but will not be completed until we completely die to this world.
It is this constant spiritual growth in our imperfect love for God that if we want it to be perfected we need to keep working with God so that He can perfect it.
Does this make sense?
 
But… Luther rejected the Idea of purgatory…

I believe that when we die, our works will be judged-the bema seat judgement… that’s in 1st Corinthians 3…
But, in another post you dais that we are saved by faith alone? Meaning only faith would be judged? Did I misunderstand you?

Also Luther was the founder of the “Protestant reformation” here’s a hint ‘protestant’. The followers of Luther are Lutherans, who are Protestants, and I am positive that you already knew that. You have a misunderstanding of the holy Church. Maybe you should talk to a priest?
 
First, the notion a 3rd state of sanctification is not new and has been recognized in the Orthodox Jewish religion and in Christianity up until recently (in Christian historic terms). It wasnt until the 1500s that purgatory was rejected namely during the protestant reformation. The name purgatory was given to this 3rd state/process, much like the word Trinity is used. Although not specifically named in the bible, its nature can be deduced from scripture. All Christians agree that unclean souls will not go to heaven, the teaching of purgatory allows us to understand the sanctification of our souls. Its fairly easy for Catholics to understand purgatory from scripture in Maccabees; however, this book is not in the protestant bible.

2 Macc 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory.
Other references in scripture

… There is a divine purging fire that heals us
Hebrews 12:29 - For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:10 - And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.
Isaiah 6:5 - And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts.
Isaiah 6:6 - And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar.
Isaiah 6:7 - And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.
Luke 12:59 "I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny "
1Corinthians 3:15 Paul is telling us that at the day of judgement each man’s work will be tried… What happens if a man’s work fails the test? “He will be the loser;and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire”

… Jesus also implied that sins can be forgiven in the next world.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell showing there is another state after death.

… More direct examples of purgatory
Luke 12:47-48 - When the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - In this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This website has great content on purgatory.
www.saint-mike.org
 
Well, liike the other person said I"m more of a cultural catholic or post-modern catholic… my dad’s side of the family is chatolic, but i never really went to Mass when I was growin up, much less Catechism… now get this… the ONLY reason I like going to the Catholic church is becasue of the Mass!!! That’s it!!! I reject the dogmas and all that stuff… So maybe I shouldn’t go anymore…
Then, according to the Bible - you’re not a member of Christ’s Church:
Luke 10:16

"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me."

Another thing - there is no such thing as “cultural catholic” or “post-modern catholic”. There is no such thing as being either “catholic” or “Catholic”.
**You’re either Catholic or you’re not. **

“Catholic” is not simply a name. It identifies the UNIVERSAL Church of Jesus Christ - the one HE established and not another one established by flawed, sinful men. **
According to the words of Jesus himself - by rejecting the teachings of his Church, you have rejected HIM.
 
*Dear Jason,
In case you were interested still, I just wanted to come back and clarify something I said earlier in my last post to you…

When I say; “Sometimes I believe it does call for us to have blind faith and trust.”
and, “I personally find having blind faith and trust to be the hardest, darkest and scariest thing to accept…”

*I do not believe I am referring to “blind” in the literal sense of the word.
It is more of a blindness of not understanding everything.
It is like I know enough to keep searching and trying to understand God’s Truths.
But I know I can not teach myself so I have to put my faith and trust in someone else to help me understand God’s Truths. This is the “blind” part I am talking about…
Now who I choose to put my faith and trust in to teach me is another thing.
I guess the best way to describe it is like walking blindly but with ears wide open.
Anyway, just wanted to clarify.

As always I hope and pray it makes some sense…
 
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