Purgatory

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I call this my “banana peel premise”.

You go to confession, you make a good confession, you repent and have the purpose of amendment.

Father gives you the absolution and your pennance - pray 4 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers - you exit the confessional. Some other parishioner was eating a banana in church (?) drops the banana peel on the floor and you slip on the banana peel; break your neck and die.

Your soul would go to Purgatory because even though you went to confessiona and it was a good confession - you didn’t fulfill your pennance.

someone else has to do that for you…your family, your friends, the legion of Mary etc.

Don’t worry, I pray the Rosarium Memento Mori everyday…it is my mission and your soul will recieve my prayers.
You presume to know the disposition of a person’s soul on the basis of a failure to undertake a particular act on Earth? My goodness, what conceit. Perhaps He is mistakenly receiving the souls of the righteous who have lived according to His gospel, yet have failed to undertake penance (due to no fault of their own, in your example) after reconciling with Him through the Sacrament. Let’s hope He reads these pages and starts getting the process right.
 
brb, I love you too much to argue with you. Arguments, even sometimes freindly debate, often robs us of peace, and I find that Christ cannot operate unless I am at peace. I don’t want to rob you of that same peace either.

-Tim-
Tim …

Is Purgatory a mandatory Dogma for Catholics ? If so, we should be able to trace its roots in our Church all the way back to the Apostles & Christ.

I’d love to be able to do this as an Apologist to my Protestant brethren … but, so far my brother & sister Catholics haven’t show here that the 12 or even the earliest ECF’s defined Purgatory in their writings. Also, I don’t see in scripture where Christ taught that we can/must pray the dead out of Purgatory. Christ only seems to teach 2 choices for us … Heaven/Hell.

For me at least, Purgatory seems poorly supportable. It appears we only get one chance in this life to follow Christ in perseverance, living the Beatitudes [our new Law from Christ] … and we TIMEOUT at our deaths. The clock stops for us at that moment. We are either alive IN CHRIST AT THAT MOMENT … our we aren’t. As Paul says “Absent from the body … alive with Christ” !!! Our friends back on earth can’t help us then. There is a GREAT GULF … that separates us from them … so said Christ, via a Parable on the subject. The early church banned some sinners FOR LIFE from the Church … as beyond hope. It was an either / or situation for them … w/o the Purgatory option.

I’d LOVE to think we could get a second chance purgation. Everyone would love to be comforted by that idea of a Purgatory … where the Church’s grace could be applied on our behalf, to purge us from both venial [and mortal ? ] unconfessed sins. But, just perhaps that’s the point … that our minds so desire a second chance … that we have invented this doctrine in more recent times to soothe our concerns over those that have died that we know and so dearly loved.

Tim … make the case here for us on Purgatory. If you can, I will grab hold with gusto !! And affirm that the Catholic Church got this one right for us … 👍
 
Tim …

Is Purgatory a mandatory Dogma for Catholics ? If so, we should be able to trace its roots in our Church all the way back to the Apostles & Christ.

I’d love to be able to do this as an Apologist to my Protestant brethren … but, so far my brother & sister Catholics haven’t show here that the 12 or even the earliest ECF’s defined Purgatory in their writings. Also, I don’t see in scripture where Christ taught that we can/must pray the dead out of Purgatory. Christ only seems to teach 2 choices for us … Heaven/Hell.

For me at least, Purgatory seems poorly supportable. It appears we only get one chance in this life to follow Christ in perseverance, living the Beatitudes [our new Law from Christ] … and we TIMEOUT at our deaths. The clock stops for us at that moment. We are either alive IN CHRIST AT THAT MOMENT … our we aren’t. As Paul says “Absent from the body … alive with Christ” !!! Our friends back on earth can’t help us then. There is a GREAT GULF … that separates us from them … so said Christ, via a Parable on the subject. The early church banned some sinners FOR LIFE from the Church … as beyond hope. It was an either / or situation for them … w/o the Purgatory option.

I’d LOVE to think we could get a second chance purgation. Everyone would love to be comforted by that idea of a Purgatory … where the Church’s grace could be applied on our behalf, to purge us from both venial [and mortal ? ] unconfessed sins. But, just perhaps that’s the point … that our minds so desire a second chance … that we have invented this doctrine in more recent times to soothe our concerns over those that have died that we know and so dearly loved.

Tim … make the case here for us on Purgatory. If you can, I will grab hold with gusto !! And affirm that the Catholic Church got this one right for us … 👍
BRB, I so much appreciate your willingness to not argue. 🙂 I have read your posts through slowly a second time and think I understand your position well. I will try to type something up, and may submit it as a seperate thread. Keep your eyes open for it but I do have to work today so may not get to it for a while.

In the meantime, I can offer the following.

Yes, Purgatory has been defined by the Church as dogma, and as such requires the assent of faith. I believe the councils of Florence and Trent made the dogmatic pronouncement, but someone else can check that.

There are many writings of the early fathers which are consistent with the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. If you wish, you can read some of them here.

I would also point you to my paper titled, “The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory.” The same paper is available online as a blog post here.

-Tim-
 
Where did Christ teach Article 1030, in scripture ? Christ taught Heaven & Hell … and it appears that Lazarus was viewed in Hell.

Where does Christ teach his forgiveness of sins was contingent upon a mid-level Purgatory ? Did not his blood shed at Calvary wash away our sins and PERFECTLY PURIFY us … upon our belief in Him & desire to become his Disciples.

We are being purified IN THIS WORLD, via suffering and perseverance in ‘gracious’ Works. Paul doesn’t teach Purgatory. He says “absent from the body, present with the Lord”. Purgatory would seem a cop-out … for those who don’t have Salvation Assurance, and need a second chance @ suffering, [cross bearing].
I pray my brother you are not one who thinks because a specific word is not spoken in scripture that the element doesn’t exist. Purgatory is the name given by the Church to the process spoken of many time through the Old and New Testament. To judge something the Church teaches does not exist because the specific word used to describe it was not specifically written is something far from accurate. This can be proven many times over and the word “Trinity” is a perfect example.

Hell is never referred to as a place of purification or a place for judgment to take place. In sayinghe will be saved but only as through fire as attested to in 1 Corinthians CH3: vs13-15 below shows a process of purification that takes place before the soul enters heaven.

The Bible comes from the teachings of the Catholic Church and can no more be separated from it than a book can be separated from its author. The Gospels themselves are written from the very same Sacred Tradition the Church teaches. To attempt to claim scripture separate of or in opposition to Church teaching is a major mistake for those who adopt such a way of thought. I strongly recommend reading the article “The Bible Alone” . Otherwise, it is like the reader of a book claiming he knows better than the author what the message of the book is.
You asked; “Did not his blood shed at Calvary wash away our sins and PERFECTLY PURIFY us … upon our belief in Him & desire to become his Disciples.”
Throughout scripture it is clear that Jesus sacrifice was made so that all men MAY or MIGHT be saved, not will be saved. the will part is up to how well we live to retain our salvation. As far as our “belief” in Him, such belief is reflected in our living according to His Word. Our Charitable works of love toward one another express the depth of our faith and devotion. How well we do this is determined by Him. Once we have been forgiven our sins, He determines what is necessary for the purification of our souls to enter Heaven and it is then completed before Heaven through purgation. It would not make sense to go to Hell if we are forgiven. Without being forgiven, we can not go through Purgatory. This is not a second opportunity to be saved, it is only for the saved.
The suffering of this world is not our purgation although that suffering may be looked upon with compassion by Christ and considered in our judgment of course. The sufferings of this world were brought on by the sins of man in this world. No where in scripture does man or any soul have the ability to choose and commit sin in Heaven, Hell, or once having left this human life. It is our free will that enables us to choose sin or obedience and that is the journey of this life. Judgment comes after death when the period has ended for man to choose to love and follow God or reject Him. This is not Purgatory although to some it may seem so in some ways. Below are a few sample passages that refer to the process we refer to as Purgatory.

Heb. CH9: 27 Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. (Eagerly refers to those who await Him living in obedience to His word.)

Rev. CH21: 27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

continued next post…
 
continued from previous post…

1 Corinthians CH3: 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Maccabees CH12: 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Matthew CH12: 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Hence, the age to come does allow for forgiveness through purgation)

Luke CH12: 57 “Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. 59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” (Being released in this sense refers to the release form purgation or purification to enter heaven.)
 
Sample quotes from the ECFs

Clement of Alexandria - The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Stromata 6:14 [A.D. 202]).

Origen - If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Homilies on Jeremias 13: 445, 448 [A.D. 244]).

Abercius - The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian - That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

Also; The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213).

**Cyprian -It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem - Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom - Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
 
I wont go into detail but I 35 years ago, took a wee trip to the other side after an auto accident. I was a different person then and it was not, for me, a pleasant trip. They say when you die you see your life pass before your eyes. It does happen but not like say a movie on fast forward. When I went it was like looking through an infinite tube of crystal clear water and as you look through that water you see,all at the same time, every thought, word, action you took from the moment you were born until the moment you passed over. And, you know, instantly and without any argument, excuse, discussion, whether you, so to speak, passed muster. And you completely understand and know. Its just there, its beyone refute. I got the impression that purgotory is where you have to go, not for a set time, but until you go through EVERY sin you committed throughout your life, and understand the sin reconcile with what you did wrong to commit that sin and atone for the sin and basically, let it go. You cannot enter into heaven without a sin free pure soul. You simply must spend your time there until you have cleansed yourself
 
Since it’s been mentioned over and over again, I won’t touch on where in the Bible Purgatory is described and validated, but recommend some reading:

A good modern book is called Hungry Souls, it’s about apparitions and private revelations concerning Purgatory, and it very nicely explains it as a doctrine, a process, and a place. Another good one is much older, called simply Purgatory, I think by a woman named Sinclair, written in 1884, available as an e-book for Kindle for free. (If you don’t have a Kindle, you can download Kindle for PC for free.) This e-book is a conglomeration of many sources on the topic, including writings of the early Church Fathers and saints who have had special knowledge given them (Catherine of Siena for example). If I remember correctly, the e-book has an imprimatur, I don’t recall about Hungry Souls. But since my opinion means so much, it has my imprimatur–I didn’t see anything contrary to faith in either book.

My understanding is that Purgatory is a place in the same sense that Heaven and Hell are places, and what the soul undergoes there is both purification and punishment. A soul is rightfully (and willingly) punished for unconfessed sins, and made pure from the stain of sins committed and forgiven. I’ve heard the analogy of breaking a neighbor’s window–the neighbor forgives you, but you still have to pay for a new window. However in this life we may be grumpy about paying for the window, after death we are given a glimpse at our personal judgment of the glory of God which we will (or will not, if hellbound) attain after purification. We see, if only briefly, the perfection and holiness of God, are given to understand the gravity of our sins and how not even the least smear of the stain of sin can enter into His presence, and willingly are sent to Purgatory to have the offenses burned away. There is a parable in the Bible (sorry I don’t have the verse offhand but I’m sure it’s been quoted already) about how the fire destroys all a man’s works, whether they be gold or dross, until the man emerges. Our sins are taken into account, but so are our virtues, which are like the man’s gold. The hay (sin) burns away to nothing, leaving a man and his refined gold, which survived the fire.

The soul knows its sinfulness, and wishes to be purified so it can enter into the presence of God. Given the choice, the soul would not go to God before undergoing purification, understanding this to be insult and blasphemy. There are two forms of suffering for the soul in Purgatory–pain of sense and pain of loss. Pain of sense is what we’d understand as physical torment, of the body (although the soul is separated from the body, the soul comprehends pain), caused by (depending on the source) fire or ice (some revelations of Purgatory are of a frozen lake, or even of being alternated between fire and the frozen lake). The suffering has been compared to the severity of torment to a soul in hell (beyond any earthly, bodily pain), with the exception that in hell there is no hope of it ever ending. In Purgatory, one suffers with the knowledge that it is for his perfection and that he will, someday, be released to go to God. Pain of loss is the suffering caused by knowing the beauty of God, and having to exist (for a time) away from it. The soul has seen God and longs for Him, the longing growing more painful the closer to holiness the soul becomes.

The image of concentric circles or a spiral is used in Hungry Souls, like planets orbiting around the sun: each planet in this case is a soul, and God is the sun. The souls farthest from God and with the most stain of past sins are cold and may not feel a strong pain of loss because they don’t so much care they are far from God. But as they attain holiness and atone for their sins, they circle slowly closer to the center, where they gain warmth and become more aware of their longing to be with God, rather than kept away from Him.

Pain of sense apparently can be relieved by the prayers and suffering of the living–which is why in all the apparitions from Purgatory, they always ask for Masses and prayers to ease their suffering. This is what we can do to help, for they are not allowed to pray for themselves. They are allowed to pray and intercede for us (and indeed will remember us when we have died–there are revelations as well of the souls released from Purgatory by a saint assisting that saint directly into Heaven), but not for themselves. God has willed that their only hope for prayer come from the living. So we can and should relieve their suffering here on Earth (and preemptively devote our sufferings to ease our pain in Purgatory for our perfection) as a work of mercy and love. When that debt has been paid, they may still have a time in Purgatory for the complete perfection of their soul because of the pain of loss. This we cannot really ease, they have to wait it out, but can do so without the torments of the pain of sense, and they are willing to wait this time and suffer the separation from God, because they are fully understanding and accepting of His will.

So the takeaway: Purgatory is purification and punishment, but undertaken willingly by the soul, because of the knowledge that eventually it will be united with God again. We must pray for them because they cannot pray for themselves, but in their gratitude, will pray for us.
 
Yes, Purgatory has been defined by the Church as dogma, and as such requires the assent of faith. I believe the councils of Florence and Trent made the dogmatic pronouncement, but someone else can check that.

There are many writings of the early fathers which are consistent with the Catholic dogma of Purgatory.
OK … I did some research on topic. There is sufficient evidence in scripture to commend this Catholic Doctrine. And, there are some ECF evidence/writings to support it as Normative in the Early Church. But, the way to really look at the topic is to see it as the course of last resort. We are encouraged to serve our Penance here on earth, so as not to need to pass thru the fire in Purgatory. We need to not store up hay & stubble. If we take up our cross and follow Christ, stay fully confessed, avoid Mortals, and keep venial to minimum … always allowing the Eucharist to remove them on weekly basis. Thus, we allow Christ to judge us in the here and now, suffering for our faith in this world, and being purged of sin and its consequences during this life.

The Catholic Church is ideally suited to allow us to weekly judge ourselves and be preserved from future sins via Eucharist. God in his mercy, has allowed his earthly Priests to bind/loose us in this world … so as to spare us from the flames in the next. The ECF’s taught that purgation by fire in Purgatory would be much, much worse than any penance & suffering we might be asked to bear by our Priesthood.

Isn’t the RCC great ? It has an answer/solution for every problem. 🙂 Now, tell me why the Eastern Orthodox Church rejected idea of Purgatory, as have the Protestant Churches ? What do they know that the RCC doesn’t ? 🤷
 
Since it’s been mentioned over and over again, I won’t touch on where in the Bible Purgatory is described and validated, but recommend some reading
Please indulge an ignorant sinner and refer me to the part of the New Testament where Purgatory is specifically described and validated. No need to go into detail, just the reference will suffice.
 
Please indulge an ignorant sinner and refer me to the part of the New Testament where Purgatory is specifically described and validated. No need to go into detail, just the reference will suffice.
There are those who think because a specific word is not written in scripture that the element referred to doesn’t exist. I will provide what I said earlier: Purgatory is the name given by the Church to the process spoken of many time through the Old and New Testament. To judge something the Church teaches does not exist because the specific word used to describe it was not specifically written is something far from accurate and a good way to invalidate ones self. This can be proven many times over and the word “Trinity” is a perfect example. The following passages pertain to the process which has been known as purgatory by the Church:

Hell is never referred to as a place of purification or a place for judgment to take place. In saying he will be saved but only as through fire as attested to in 1 Corinthians CH3: vs13-15 below shows a process of purification that takes place before the soul enters heaven.

1 Corinthians CH3: 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew CH12: 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Hence, the age to come does allow for forgiveness through purgation but nowhere in scripture does one receive forgiveness once in Hell, leaving one other process, purgation or Purgatory).

Luke CH12: 57 “Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. 59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” (Being released in this sense refers to the release form purgation or purification to enter heaven.)

Rev. CH21: 27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This place which was not labeled specifically is referred to as Purgatory, just as the three persons in one God are not specifically named in their union but Christians refer to them as the Trinity.

Now, for those who may suggest something not specifically written in scripture by name is therefore invalid, consider where that person may find scriptural support to validate the “reformation” or for any one of the many thousands of separatist systems of beliefs that were born from it or after it. What scriptural support is there for Luther, Calvin, Smith, Russell, or any other founder other than Christ? No other “Christian faith” existed when scripture was taught by or written according to the teachings of the apostles, During the 1st century the apostles wrote the following:

1 Corinthians CH1; 9 “God is faithful, and by him you were called to fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.”

Considering only Catholicism is proven to possess the lineage that remains consistent since this text was written and also possess the consistency in teachings of Christ since the 1st century and throughout history as it does AND the Holy Bible originated from the Catholic Faith, any other system of beliefs in opposition to the Catholic Faith remains separate of and in opposition to this previous scripture passage. God is faithful and it is God who calls us to this fellowship which can not include opposing beliefs. Those who are not compliant with this passage in its complete form are not of that one fellowship obviously, nor do they possess the unity in the elements of faith this passages refers to. Hopefully this will aid in your concerns.
 
Since it’s been mentioned over and over again, I won’t touch on where in the Bible Purgatory is described and validated, but recommend some reading:

A good modern book is called Hungry Souls, it’s about apparitions and private revelations concerning Purgatory, and it very nicely explains it as a doctrine, a process, and a place. Another good one is much older, called simply Purgatory, I think by a woman named Sinclair, written in 1884, available as an e-book for Kindle for free. (If you don’t have a Kindle, you can download Kindle for PC for free.) This e-book is a conglomeration of many sources on the topic, including writings of the early Church Fathers and saints who have had special knowledge given them (Catherine of Siena for example). If I remember correctly, the e-book has an imprimatur, I don’t recall about Hungry Souls. But since my opinion means so much, it has my imprimatur–I didn’t see anything contrary to faith in either book.

My understanding is that Purgatory is a place in the same sense that Heaven and Hell are places, and what the soul undergoes there is both purification and punishment. A soul is rightfully (and willingly) punished for unconfessed sins, and made pure from the stain of sins committed and forgiven. I’ve heard the analogy of breaking a neighbor’s window–the neighbor forgives you, but you still have to pay for a new window. However in this life we may be grumpy about paying for the window, after death we are given a glimpse at our personal judgment of the glory of God which we will (or will not, if hellbound) attain after purification. We see, if only briefly, the perfection and holiness of God, are given to understand the gravity of our sins and how not even the least smear of the stain of sin can enter into His presence, and willingly are sent to Purgatory to have the offenses burned away. There is a parable in the Bible (sorry I don’t have the verse offhand but I’m sure it’s been quoted already) about how the fire destroys all a man’s works, whether they be gold or dross, until the man emerges. Our sins are taken into account, but so are our virtues, which are like the man’s gold. The hay (sin) burns away to nothing, leaving a man and his refined gold, which survived the fire.

The soul knows its sinfulness, and wishes to be purified so it can enter into the presence of God. Given the choice, the soul would not go to God before undergoing purification, understanding this to be insult and blasphemy. There are two forms of suffering for the soul in Purgatory–pain of sense and pain of loss. Pain of sense is what we’d understand as physical torment, of the body (although the soul is separated from the body, the soul comprehends pain), caused by (depending on the source) fire or ice (some revelations of Purgatory are of a frozen lake, or even of being alternated between fire and the frozen lake). The suffering has been compared to the severity of torment to a soul in hell (beyond any earthly, bodily pain), with the exception that in hell there is no hope of it ever ending. In Purgatory, one suffers with the knowledge that it is for his perfection and that he will, someday, be released to go to God. Pain of loss is the suffering caused by knowing the beauty of God, and having to exist (for a time) away from it. The soul has seen God and longs for Him, the longing growing more painful the closer to holiness the soul becomes.

The image of concentric circles or a spiral is used in Hungry Souls, like planets orbiting around the sun: each planet in this case is a soul, and God is the sun. The souls farthest from God and with the most stain of past sins are cold and may not feel a strong pain of loss because they don’t so much care they are far from God. But as they attain holiness and atone for their sins, they circle slowly closer to the center, where they gain warmth and become more aware of their longing to be with God, rather than kept away from Him.

Pain of sense apparently can be relieved by the prayers and suffering of the living–which is why in all the apparitions from Purgatory, they always ask for Masses and prayers to ease their suffering. This is what we can do to help, for they are not allowed to pray for themselves. They are allowed to pray and intercede for us (and indeed will remember us when we have died–there are revelations as well of the souls released from Purgatory by a saint assisting that saint directly into Heaven), but not for themselves. God has willed that their only hope for prayer come from the living. So we can and should relieve their suffering here on Earth (and preemptively devote our sufferings to ease our pain in Purgatory for our perfection) as a work of mercy and love. When that debt has been paid, they may still have a time in Purgatory for the complete perfection of their soul because of the pain of loss. This we cannot really ease, they have to wait it out, but can do so without the torments of the pain of sense, and they are willing to wait this time and suffer the separation from God, because they are fully understanding and accepting of His will.

So the takeaway: Purgatory is purification and punishment, but undertaken willingly by the soul, because of the knowledge that eventually it will be united with God again. We must pray for them because they cannot pray for themselves, but in their gratitude, will pray for us.
Both books are well worth reading and your assumption is very accurate in my humble opinion. I agree with your post and suggest others look into these books as well as they my come to a deeper insight in the process of Purgatory. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I have come to understand Purgatory as a state of being, rather than a “place”. It is a state of separation from God that is the pain we would experience during our time in Purgatory. When we say “in Purgatory” it’s easy to confuse it with a place. However; it’s no different than being in a state of ecstacy or agony. It would definitely be a state of agony to be as close to God as a soul in Purgatory can be; but yet not be fully in his presence. It would be like looking through a plate glass window and seeing your spouse or child, and your heart being so full of love for that person, and yet that glass is keeping you from reaching over and hugging or kissing them.

It’s through the prayers and sacrifices of those on earth that gradually bring down that piece of glass until you are fully in the light of Christ’s face.
What a wonderful day that will be!! :extrahappy:
 
I have come to understand Purgatory as a state of being, rather than a “place”. It is a state of separation from God that is the pain we would experience during our time in Purgatory. When we say “in Purgatory” it’s easy to confuse it with a place. However; it’s no different than being in a state of ecstacy or agony. It would definitely be a state of agony to be as close to God as a soul in Purgatory can be; but yet not be fully in his presence. It would be like looking through a plate glass window and seeing your spouse or child, and your heart being so full of love for that person, and yet that glass is keeping you from reaching over and hugging or kissing them.

It’s through the prayers and sacrifices of those on earth that gradually bring down that piece of glass until you are fully in the light of Christ’s face.
What a wonderful day that will be!! :extrahappy:
well said, and yes this is one of the thoughts attributed to the most severe pain of that purification, that separation from God and waiting to be united with Him, thank you…
 
I see purgatory in this light. It is our second chance that Jesus gave us by dying for the forgiveness of our sins.

By accepting Jesus as our lord and savior we are saved. But saved from what? I believe we are saved from eternal damnation. Now hear me out. We are saved from something , but he doesn’t say we are automaticaly guarenteed heaven. The bible states that heaven is a holy place and that nothing unholy can enter into it. Do you believe that just because a sinner is forgiven of his sins, that he is holy?

What i believe,(and i may be wrong) is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, that forgiveness gives us a second chance. That second chance is purgatory. I see purgatory as a place of learning. We learn about God and his nature, we learn about our sins and how they offended God at the time we commited those sins. We learn how to change our thinking to coincide with how God wants us to be. Sometimes this learning requires a little suffering, we must face how we failed God while we lived our lives on earth. This in and of itself can be attributed to the cleansing by fire that Paul refers to. We burn when we have to admit our faults and failings. But afterwards, if we truly repent, we feel cleansed. After we die, our soul, our spiritual being exist and must be cleansed or purified to enter heaven. As humans, do we truly know the extent or reprecussions of our sins? We really learn them in purgatory. We really learn how to repent. We get a glimpse of everlasting life with God and we must strive to be pleasing to him in order to be with him. We are taught how to be pleasing to God in purgatory.

Remember that even in heaven as well as purgatory, we still have free will. We can choose to believe, to learn , to accept our faults, to repent, etc etc. After all, the Angels, God’s original creations have free will. Satan had the free will to defy God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. Purgatory is like a training camp for heaven if you will. It test our free will. We all have our own course of study that Jesus has set up for us. We all have had different life experiences that we must understand and answer for till the last penny has been paid. We pray for those who have died, that they have learned from or have accepted the teachings and temporal punishments for their sins and have been purified enough to enter into heaven.
 
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What i believe,(and i may be wrong) is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, that forgiveness gives us a second chance. That second chance is purgatory. I see purgatory as a place of learning…
Christ didn’t talk of second chances … the ECF’s didn’t teach we get second chance at Salvation. The CC doesn’t today teach it offers us a second chance at Salvation.

Now as to a place of learning … its a place of YEARNING, to get beyond the intense fire. It is always taught as a painful place/process, that we should definately desire to avoid … by attending Mass on weekly basis and being purged on earth] of venial sins via the Eucharist & personal confession.
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Also:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.”
 
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