Purgatory?

[khmsct99]

Hello everyone! So, I was wondering about purgatory?

These kids, one being the “friend”… there is not another word to describe her… but her and some guy were talking about the Blood Moon. Then they started talking about Lutherans, then Pentecostals, then a few more parts of Christianity. Then they brought up Catholicism, and so that brought up my attention… to where my friend started asking me questions, now I have not converted, yet, but I will soon… but anyways, I got asked these questions, that I didn’t know very well.

I got asked why did the Catholics pray to Mary, and then I got asked what my opinions were, and then I got asked, what about Purgatory? Now, I have heard about it before… I just don’t know what it is.

I have heard different things, like that it is a place for okay souls, like not bad but not great… then I have heard it is where people are on fire and such, I really do not know?

Anyways, thanks for your answers

 

[Trishie]

Welcome!

First I will respond to your question about Purgatory from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church. References below.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

"III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): 1304; Council of Trent (1563): 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Corinthians 3:15; 1 Peter 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Maccabees 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Corinthians. 41,5G 61,361; cf. [Book of] Job 1:5."

 

[Trishie]

Jesus demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:

In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus,
and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.

Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death,
just possible loss of face of the hosts,
of the wedding feast of Cana.

John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him."

Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?!

 

[Trishie]

Jesus so loves His mother that even in His last agony, He provided for her future.

This chapter of the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains Mary’s place in the Church and for us as Catholics:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

This chapter includes
"Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507 "

May God abundantly bless you.
Kind wishes,
Trishie

 

[ClearWater]

Hello everyone! So, I was wondering about purgatory?

These kids, one being the “friend”… there is not another word to describe her… but her and some guy were talking about the Blood Moon. Then they started talking about Lutherans, then Pentecostals, then a few more parts of Christianity. Then they brought up Catholicism, and so that brought up my attention… to where my friend started asking me questions, now I have not converted, yet, but I will soon… but anyways, I got asked these questions, that I didn’t know very well.

I got asked why did the Catholics pray to Mary, and then I got asked what my opinions were, and then I got asked, what about Purgatory? Now, I have heard about it before… I just don’t know what it is.

I have heard different things, like that it is a place for okay souls, like not bad but not great… then I have heard it is where people are on fire and such, I really do not know?

Anyways, thanks for your answers

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM

Additionally, Catholic Answers has one, as well.

shop.catholic.com/bible-cheat-sheet.html

Of course, additionally, there are many entire books on apologetics, defending the faith.

 

[Cathoholic]

khmsct99 and Purgatory question.

Welcome to CAF. I have had this same discussion before. I will try to go through the hypothetical discussion in a general manner for you. Your friend(s) are “Q”.

Q: “How come you Catholics believe in a silly un-Biblical Purgatory when the word “Purgatory” isn’t even in the Bible?

khmsct99: The word “Bible”, “Trinity”, “Incarnation”, etc. aren’t in the Bible either but the doctrines ARE.

So before I answer you why I believe in Purgatory, first you have to tell me what Purgatory is (because non-Catholics almost always are criticizing “Purgatory” when they don’t understand what “Purgatory” is).

Questioner: “Well Purgatory is where you get a second chance in the next life if you were going to Hell.”

khmsct99: Nope.

Questioner: “Well Purgatory is where you go after you die while God tries to figure out if you belong in Heaven or Hell.”

khmsct99: Nope. You see. You are criticizing something you don’t even know.

Questioner: OK. What IS Purgatory then.

khmsct99: Sometimes people may die in a state of friendship with God, sometimes they do not.

Catholics call this “being in a state of grace” when they die in the friendship of God.

People who die in a state of grace . . . ALL go to Heaven. This includes people who might have a “deathbed conversion” that we may not know about.

But people who by their own choice reject being in God’s grace, die NOT in grace. These people all go to Hell.

Now about those people going to Heaven . . .

Some of the people who go to Heaven may have some sinful tendencies they need to have removed or purged from them. Since this is out of the realm of time it is mysterious.

Questioner: OK. I agree with the fact that all people either go to Heaven of Hell. But what about the Purgatory part? That you even believe this non-sense is what is “mysterious” to me.

khmsct99: The Purgatory part is only for people who are going to Heaven because nothing impure can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27).

We must be perfectly purified. Are you perfect right now? No.

Will you be perfect in Heaven? Yes.

For now I wanted to give you an introduction to this discussion. Usually this is enough to get someone to change the subject to: “OK. What about Mary, the Pope, the Saints, works, etc. etc.”

Don’t allow that though.

Just keep asking them if they are perfect now (they will say “no”).

Then ask if they will be perfect in Heaven or will there be lying, cheating, murder, etc. in Heaven?

They will admit that all in Heaven have been perfected and their will be no lying, etc. in Heaven. There will be no sin in Heaven.

Ask how the people on earth went from sinful nature to having all sin “purged” (hint. hint. “purge”-atory) out of them in Heaven? (I suggest you use the word “purged” too)

Imperfect now. . . . . . . Perfected BEFORE entering Heaven.

What happened between “imperfect on earth” and “perfect in Heaven”?

I asked this question to a Seventh-Day Adventist once (who was asking me about Purgatory). I had to ask and re-ask several times. All he could do is say . . . “THAT"S Purgatory?” I said Yep. That’s Purgatory. He already in effect affirmed it but did not call it Purgatory and even tried to escape thinking about it I suspect (until I asked him the above questions over and over several times).

This discussion is pretty common and I’ve been in it myself many times. You can read and re-read the dialogue above a few times to internalize it yourself. It won’t be exact but it will likely be close to what you encounter.

Later I may attempt to give you or other readers that happen here, the rest of the usual discussion that follows in the scenario outlined above (if the subject is not changed).

They will ask for evidence. If they affirmed they are not perfect now and they will be perfect in Heaven, you can ask them why they think that. THAT will be the evidence.

I will try to give MORE evidence (and verses) later.

 

[khmsct99]

khmsct99 and Purgatory question.

Welcome to CAF. I have had this same discussion before. I will try to go through the hypothetical discussion in a general manner for you. Your friend(s) are “Q”.

Q: “How come you Catholics believe in a silly un-Biblical Purgatory when the word “Purgatory” isn’t even in the Bible?

khmsct99: The word “Bible”, “Trinity”, “Incarnation”, etc. aren’t in the Bible either but the doctrines ARE.

So before I answer you why I believe in Purgatory, first you have to tell me what Purgatory is (because non-Catholics almost always are criticizing “Purgatory” when they don’t understand what “Purgatory” is).

Questioner: “Well Purgatory is where you get a second chance in the next life if you were going to Hell.”

khmsct99: Nope.

Questioner: “Well Purgatory is where you go after you die while God tries to figure out if you belong in Heaven or Hell.”

khmsct99: Nope. You see. You are criticizing something you don’t even know.

Questioner: OK. What IS Purgatory then.

khmsct99: Sometimes people may die in a state of friendship with God, sometimes they do not.

Catholics call this “being in a state of grace” when they die in the friendship of God.

People who die in a state of grace . . . ALL go to Heaven. This includes people who might have a “deathbed conversion” that we may not know about.

But people who by their own choice reject being in God’s grace, die NOT in grace. These people all go to Hell.

Now about those people going to Heaven . . .

Some of the people who go to Heaven may have some sinful tendencies they need to have removed or purged from them. Since this is out of the realm of time it is mysterious.

Questioner: OK. I agree with the fact that all people either go to Heaven of Hell. But what about the Purgatory part? That you even believe this non-sense is what is “mysterious” to me.

khmsct99: The Purgatory part is only for people who are going to Heaven because nothing impure can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27).

We must be perfectly purified. Are you perfect right now? No.

Will you be perfect in Heaven? Yes.

For now I wanted to give you an introduction to this discussion. Usually this is enough to get someone to change the subject to: “OK. What about Mary, the Pope, the Saints, works, etc. etc.”

Don’t allow that though.

Just keep asking them if they are perfect now (they will say “no”).

Then ask if they will be perfect in Heaven or will there be lying, cheating, murder, etc. in Heaven?

They will admit that all in Heaven have been perfected and their will be no lying, etc. in Heaven. There will be no sin in Heaven.

Ask how the people on earth went from sinful nature to having all sin “purged” (hint. hint. “purge”-atory) out of them in Heaven? (I suggest you use the word “purged” too)

Imperfect now. . . . . . . Perfected BEFORE entering Heaven.

What happened between "imperfect on earth" and “perfect in Heaven”?

I asked this question to a Seventh-Day Adventist once (who was asking me about Purgatory). I had to ask and re-ask several times. All he could do is say . . . “THAT"S Purgatory?” I said Yep. That’s Purgatory. He already in effect affirmed it but did not call it Purgatory and even tried to escape thinking about it I suspect (until I asked him the above questions over and over several times).

This discussion is pretty common and I’ve been in it myself many times. You can read and re-read the dialogue above a few times to internalize it yourself. It won’t be exact but it will likely be close to what you encounter.

Later I may attempt to give you or other readers that happen here, the rest of the usual discussion that follows in the scenario outlined above (if the subject is not changed).

They will ask for evidence. If they affirmed they are not perfect now and they will be perfect in Heaven, you can ask them why they think that. THAT will be the evidence.

I will try to give MORE evidence (and verses) later.

Thank you! I like seeing the conversational format and it is easier for me to understand. Thank you everyone.