Purgatory

[lizaanne]

Another thing to consider - if there is no Purgatory, then why do we pray for the dead? If they are in hell our prayers can’t help them, if they are in heaven they don’t need our prayers, we need theirs!

People have been praying for the dead long before Christ - the belief of a place after death but before heaven is not entirely Christian as some have posted already.

Catholics didn’t just make this up - and it is most certainly NOT a non-essential difference that we can just get over.

~Liza

 

[JoeyWarren]

If there is no state of purgation, then I can sin, sin, sin all the way to my death bed and then at the final moment ask Jesus into my heart and ask him to forgive me of all my sins, then I am standing next to you, the saint, with the same reward of being in heaven before the presence of God.

 

[bobzills]

If there is no state of purgation, then I can sin, sin, sin all the way to my death bed and then at the final moment ask Jesus into my heart and ask him to forgive me of all my sins, then I am standing next to you, the saint, with the same reward of being in heaven before the presence of God.

OK, but it is a similar thing for Catholics also. For example, take the case of a serial child killer and whatever additional horrible criminal he was. He is now locked up for his horrific crimes which have caused untold sorow and misery to good families. He is on his way to the death chamber, when he suddenly decides to make a good confession on the basis that he knows otherwise that he would go to hell. With imperfect contrition, his sins are forgiven and he will eventually go to heaven. Whereas, a second person has spent his entire life doing good works, and giving as much as he could to the poor. Additionally, he has been saying many prayers every day, and goes to Mass often during the weekdays. However, one Sunday, he decides to stay at home and watch the World Series baseball game since he is a big baseball fan. He thus misses Mass, knowing that it was a mortal sin. He then walks to the local market, but on the way he is struck by a car and killed. So he has hurt no one during his entire lifetime. He has only done good. He has made countless people happy. But because of this one mistake at the end of his life, he will go to hell, according to the Catholic teaching?

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

OK, but it is a similar thing for Catholics also. For example, take the case of a serial child killer and whatever additional horrible criminal he was. He is now locked up for his horrific crimes which have caused untold sorow and misery to good families. He is on his way to the death chamber, when he suddenly decides to make a good confession on the basis that he knows otherwise that he would go to hell. With imperfect contrition, his sins are forgiven and he will eventually go to heaven. Whereas, a second person has spent his entire life doing good works, and giving as much as he could to the poor. Additionally, he has been saying many prayers every day, and goes to Mass often during the weekdays. However, one Sunday, he decides to stay at home and watch the World Series baseball game since he is a big baseball fan. He thus misses Mass, knowing that it was a mortal sin. He then walks to the local market, but on the way he is struck by a car and killed. So he has hurt no one during his entire lifetime. He has only done good. He has made countless people happy. But because of this one mistake at the end of his life, he will go to hell, according to the Catholic teaching?

Hi protestant posing as a Catholic, or you are a cradle catholic that was a victim of pee pee poor catechesis. And if you are a convert, then your RCIA program is pee pee poor as well.

The official position is that the Church can not state for a certain that someone will or has gone to hell. It can only state for certain that one has gone to heaven.

Theoretically yes. But in actuality we don’t know the mind of God. After all there is only one unforgivable sin, but then if there is truely an unforgivable sin in the literal sense then God is not all powerful because there is a sin that not even God can forgive. The issue becomes an oxymoron. A contradiction.

Purgatory is more of a slang and ignorant word for Spiritual Purgation.

more later, time for bed, can’t keep my eyes open…

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

P.S. the final statement of Judgement says it all in Revelations.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

By that and taking a literalist interpretation, there is a book of each one of us, and everything that we have done, said, thought, believed, etc, etc, etc whether it be good or bad is written in it.

Maybe purgation is nothing more then the reading of the book in it’s entirety at a very slow slow slow pace…with instant rewinds on the bad stuff…

 

[cranster]

13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

What an awesome scripture. Even one atom of impurity at the moment of death when entering the infinite inferno of God’s love will naturaly be burned away like impurities are removed from gold, and that process is experienced by a suffering far beyond anything that one could suffer on earth.

St. Katherine of Genoa made an interesting observation in her treatise on pergatory. She said that a soul comes to such a state of purity that if it were possible to remain one instant longer… being absolutely pure… That soul could no longer suffer. She also said that once a soul is separated from the body it goes willingly and immediately to purgatory because it could absolutely not bear the thought of being in the presence of God while impure. That soul would rather be in hell than in God’s presence until it is absolutely pure.

I love the saying “Heaven is hotter than hell”!

 

[Sir_Knight]

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

-- Heb. 10:26-27​

 

[Bishopite]

How can it be that people will go to purgatory when Christ’s work on the cross was “all sufficient”? Isn’t this degrading Jesus’ work of salvation?

Christ’s sacrifice was “all sufficient” to the Father objectively speaking. Subjectively speaking how we apply that perfect sacrifice to our lives depends on our YES to it. Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t wipe away all sin, otherwise we would all be without sin, which is universalism a heresy.
What it did was redeem us from our fallen state of sin.
Paul says in Colossians 1:24, “I fill up what is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice.” Now why would Paul say anything is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice?
What is lacking is our YES to it. When we cooperate with God’s grace we then do God’s will and plan as He works through humanity to accomplish His plan and will. We receive Christ as John says.

My question to you is, will you be perfectly sanctified at the moment of your death?

The answer is a VERY likely NO, therefore you will need what Paul taught in 1 Cor 3:11-15 “saved through fire” which means purged of the hay, straw and wood that don’t stand the test of true good works before God, unlike the gold and silver and precious stones which Paul is using as a metaphor for good works done out of love of God (Mt 25:34-40) vs the works done out of selfish ambition (Mt 25:41-46).
Again, most people are not completely sanctified at the moment of death and no sin can enter heaven (Rev 21:27), ergo, there has to be some kind of purgation between death and glory; this theological concept has been labeled by Catholicism as purgatory, just as the word “Trinity” is a word used to explain the theological concept of the three persons within the ONE Godhead are all of the same substance (homoousious).

 

[bobzills]

The official position is that the Church can not state for a certain that someone will or has gone to hell. It can only state for certain that one has gone to heaven.

Theoretically yes. But in actuality we don’t know the mind of God.

Of course, but it doesn’t have much to do with the comment made by Joey, which indicates that he doesn’t like the idea of someone being saved at the end. My example, shows that the same thing will hold for Catholicism, that someone may be saved at the end, even if he lived a bad life. And on the contrary, it is Catholic theology that if you die in the state of one unrepentant mortal sin, you are damned for all eternity? Do you deny this teaching or do you accept it? I gave an example of an individual who lived his entire life as a virtuous and good person, up to the last two days of his life. However, on the last day he committed a mortal sin and did not repent. Will such a person go to hell or not? And will the person who led a horrifically bad life, but who repented at the last moment be saved and eventually be admitted to heaven or not?
The Catholic examples are the same more or less as the one that Joey gave to criticise Protestantism.

 

[Handyrex]

hey people… just joined the forum and have always been intrested in the doctrine of purgatory… please if I sound like a cheeky guy please forgive me (its the irish in me lol)

The facts are these… because christianity is divided … our people prefer to take quotes from the bible to wipe out the doctrine of purgatory… The book of Maccabees points to its existence and above all else Jesus does refer to it in various instances in the bible through parables… sure did’nt he often teach us through parables??? people wake up!!!

Fuerthermore Our Lady herself has confirmed its existance when she appeared at fatima (catholics take note after all it is approved by the vatican)…

Purgatory is there out of God’s love for us because he knows that as a human race we are imperfect… After all those poor souls that are there are grateful although they suffer… that they will see god and enter the big kingdom!!!

Why look??.. lets not doubt… lets believe and oh yeah… do what padre pio once said… "we must empty purgatory… one prayer which was given to us from st gertrude can release 1000 souls

God gave us this power … use it… Purgatory Exists

In the words of a famous Wrestler “thats the bottom line cause God said so”

Cheers Guys!!!

Jimmy

 

[bobzills]

Fuerthermore Our Lady herself has confirmed its existance when she appeared at fatima (catholics take note after all it is approved by the vatican)…

Fatima may be an approved apparition. But still, my understanding is that Catholics are not obligated to believe in Fatima or Lourdes or Medjugorie, etc. You can be a Catholic in good standing and still not believe in Fatima.

 

[cranster]

Fatima may be an approved apparition. But still, my understanding is that Catholics are not obligated to believe in Fatima or Lourdes or Medjugorie, etc. You can be a Catholic in good standing and still not believe in Fatima.

Medjugorje is not an approved apparition, and it is also a banned topic here in case you were unaware.

 

[bobzills]

Medjugorje is not an approved apparition, and it is also a banned topic here in case you were unaware.

Sorry about that. I didn’t know. Anyway, still, my point is that you can be a good Catholic and not believe in Fatima.

 

[cranster]

Sorry about that. I didn’t know. Anyway, still, my point is that you can be a good Catholic and not believe in Fatima.

I assumed you didn’t know.

 

[Montalban]

No - because nothing that isn’t perfect can enter Heaven. And when we die, no matter how holy we might be, we are not perfect. Purgatory is where we go to be made perfect before we can be with God.

By being punished?

I like to think of it this way - I would never consider going on a date without getting ready first - bathing, fixing my hair, dressing up in my best, and trying to be my best. If I would do that for a person, why would I not want to do that before spending eternity with God?

~Liza

Except God doesn’t say that we have to do this to be loved by Him.

His love is always flowing. All we need do is geuninely receive it.

 

[Handyrex]

yeah I appreciate that you don’t have to be a catholic in good standing to believe in those apparitions in lourdes and fatima (ps although I did’nt mention medigourje thanks for telling me its a banned subject as I’m new to the site cheers!!!)

But my point shows although the Vatican has approved those apparitions and catholics are’ntobliged to believe in them, purgatory is an infallaible doctrine, so why do catholics in good standing have trouble with that?? Begs the question if you ask me!!!

As for being illuminated By Christ the rosary is class… but im a Devine Mercy haplet Man myself!!!

 

[cranster]

By being punished?
His love is always flowing. All we need do is geuninely receive it.

His love is always flowing as a consuming fire. It’s the imperfection in us that experiences this loving fire as suffering. If we were completely pure it wouldn’t be experienced as suffering. That’s why there are those that go straight to heaven. When we are completely purified, and perfected and all stain is removed that blazing love will be experienced only as the infinite love and joy that it is. There is no way around it… there is no resurection without the Cross for every single one of us. It’s God’s way!

Our reason, intellect, and perception are severely distorted by sin. The more we submit to the cross the less distorted it becomes and the less we see it as punishment but rather God’s loving mercy and justice in preparing us for the wedding feast.

Jesus reason and perception wasn’t distorted at all, and he not only willingly walked into unimaginable agony, but he longingly walked into it for us. That’s pure love.

Look at St. Francis 2 years before he died. He prayed to be able to suffer as closely as possible to Jesus suffering and to be able to love as closely as possible as Jesus. The closer He came to God the less distorted his perception was, and he was not only willing to suffer but longed for it, because as much as human nature hate’s it… the mystery of suffering is part of God’s ways being far above ours, and it is the tool He uses for our perfection. He alone knows the joy that awaits us, and that’s why he tells us the sufferings should count as nothing compared to the joy.

 

[bobzills]

so why do catholics in good standing have trouble with that?

Here is a link to an excellent book on Purgatory:
Read me or Rue it:
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT
"WHAT IS PURGATORY?

It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."
“The existence of Purgatory is so certain that no Catholic has ever
entertained a doubt of it.”
“The more intense our fire is, the more speedily it destroys its victim,
who therefore ceases to suffer; whereas, the fire of Purgatory inflicts the
keenest, most violent pain, but never kills the soul nor lessens its
sensibility.”

 

[Montalban]

His love is always flowing as a consuming fire.

Only to those who’ve hardened their hearts to him.

To others, it’s a glowing warmth.