Question about Confession/procedure/withholding absolution

[JayCL]

From what I understand, a priest can conditionally withhold absolution, can he not? If that’s the case, why don’t priests who hear the confessions of other priests who have abused their position (sexual impropriety, etc) not withhold absolution unless the offending priest turns himself in to the authorities? This seems like something that might help in instances of “pedophile” priests (please know I despise that generalization and term) and do a lot to help the Church’s image among those who think we simply shield offending priests by absolving them and shuffling them off to other parishes. Please, please do not think that I’m attacking priests, the Church, or anything like that, but as a dad if I learned that a priest had behaved inappropriately toward either of my children I’d ask you all to help my find the biggest millstone, if you get my point.

 

[JayCL]

Interesting. My RCIA director must have been mistaken. It’s a pity it doesn’t work that way. It might de-incentivize predators and would certainly look good on us. Speaking as a convert, it would be a BIG PR move to clean house and get the dirty ones out and in jail where they belong. Not forcing it looks (even to me) like being complicit.

 

[JayCL]

Because even pedophiles have consciences and carrying a huge mortal sin is a heavy cross indeed. Would it weed out everyone? Of course not, but weeding out some is better than weeding out almost none.

 

[Fauken]

It’s a pity it doesn’t work that way. It might de-incentivize predators and would certainly look good on us. Speaking as a convert, it would be a BIG PR move to clean house and get the dirty ones out and in jail where they belong. Not forcing it looks (even to me) like being complicit.

What happens in a confessional is between the penitent and God. If a priest can force someone to publicly expose themselves for one sin, there’s no reason for the others not to be exposed. It’s no different than a lawyer not being forced to admit whether or not his client is guilty of a given crime.

 

[JayCL]

I understand that logic… It’s a pity, though. Particularly heinous things like abusing children should get no quarter, not with the Church, not anywhere.

 

[Swordsman]

“The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Mat 13:27-30)

Think of sins other than the one on which you are focused. Contact a woman who you haven’t seen in five years and is now married to apologize for something? Or, contact a company you worked for ten years ago to tell them you stole money? We could go on but you probably get the idea. It could get very messy and cause harm to the penitent seeking God’s mercy.

Remove evil men from positions of ministry where they can do great harm? Sure. Uncover those who cover up or transfer predator priests? Indeed. But I don’t know if the Sacred confessional is the place to attempt such action.

Peace.

 

[Fauken]

I understand that logic… It’s a pity, though. Particularly heinous things like abusing children should get no quarter, not with the Church, not anywhere.

While we should strive to do justice on earth, confession is a place for mercy, not punishment. Justice will be reaped whether or not it’s done on earth.

 

[JayCL]

Tell that to the victims of pedophiles who get covered-for by the Church.

 

[Fauken]

Tell that to the victims of pedophiles who get covered-for by the Church.

I’m not condoning the cover up, and the abuse done by the priests on children is despicable. But forcing people to admit their sins publicly to get absolution will not solve the problem, nor do we have the right.

 

[JayCL]

Don’t they, though? “For what you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven”. Sounds like some Jesus gave the disciples some pretty good leeway when it comes to withholding forgiveness. At the very least it’ll make pedos who are on the fence about taking action think twice. Public humiliation, or the threat of it, is a strong deterrent. Everyone seems to be wringing their hands and talking about how it’s so awful but we can’t do anything. I say that’s nonsense. Some changes at the deepest levels of our Church will be required, but we can and must root out this evil. There needs to be justice and our Church needs to aid in that execution of justice. Confessing the sin, getting absolution, and then moving them somewhere else DOES NOT WORK. They need to be defrocked and face criminal charges, their privacy be damned.

 

[Fauken]

Don’t they, though? “For what you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven”. Sounds like some Jesus gave the disciples some pretty good leeway when it comes to withholding forgiveness.

A priest may withhold absolution if a penitent does not have so much as imperfect contrition for their sins. The Sacrament does not require the public admission of faults for absolution.

At the very least it’ll make pedos who are on the fence about taking action think twice. Public humiliation, or the threat of it, is a strong deterrent. Everyone seems to be wringing their hands and talking about how it’s so awful but we can’t do anything. I say that’s nonsense. Some changes at the deepest levels of our Church will be required, but we can and must root out this evil. There needs to be justice and our Church needs to aid in that execution of justice.

Sure, they shouldn’t be just moved quietly and disappear into the night, and they should he defrocked. But priests and bishops weren’t getting away with this because you “just had to go to confession, wink-wink”. Do you really think that such people would care about having to publicly air their sins? If a bishop is willing to sweep pedophilia under the rug and pull out all the stops to just make it go away quietly, this will do nothing. The problem is not confession. The problem is a corrupt network of priests, bishops, and deacons all in cahoots with each other helping each other skate under civil and ecclesiastical law. Making it so a penitent has to publicly admit their sins just opens the doors for others or similar laws like Australia. If pedophilia has to be publicly admitted, why not murder? Why not domestic abuse? Why not treason? How about we bug the confessionals “just to make sure” the pedophiles get caught?

 

[JayCL]

I don’t know the answer, man. But I do know that the complicity has poisoned our Church. But shy of making things right (turning yourself in) when you’ve committed murder or stolen a child’s innocence, what in the world kind of penance can even scratch the surface?

 

[Fauken]

I don’t know the answer, man. But I do know that the complicity has poisoned our Church. But shy of making things right (turning yourself in) when you’ve committed murder or stolen a child’s innocence, what in the world kind of penance can even scratch the surface?

I don’t know if you know this, but the penance you receive in confession is not necessarily a match to the gravity or the amount of restitution your sins need on earth. In other words, the penance you’re assigned in confession does not necessarily satisfy the temporal punishment of your sin. We’re supposed to be doing penance outside the confessional throughout our lives. I don’t know what kind of penance would satisfy it, even with a lifetime of prayer and penance at a monastery. But confession is supposed to be the beginning of that process of penance, not the end. We will be dealing with the damage those clergy have caused for years, probably decades. But they will one day die. And the justice God delivers will be perfect. We can only do what we can do, and that is to enact measures to keep children safe, remove those clergy from ministry, keep strict screening measures for men to the priesthood, keep an eye out, and most importantly, pray. Pray for our priests, pray for more holy priests, pray in reparation for their sins, and that they experience a true conversion of heart.

 

[JayCL]

Well, if nothing else I agree that we should be praying for our priests all the time. And I know that God’s justice is perfect. But I still wholeheartedly believe that criminal justice needs to be served and baby-touchers should get some worldly justice too. I pray that one day God will give me mercy toward them, but I have none. Again, help me find the biggest, heaviest millstone.

Thank you for your insight all the same, brother. I appreciate your perspective, even if we’re sometimes at odds.

 

[Fauken]

But I still wholeheartedly believe that criminal justice needs to be served and baby-touchers should get some worldly justice too. I pray that one day God will give me mercy toward them, but I have none. Again, help me find the biggest, heaviest millstone.

I agree that they should have criminal justice done. That’s a part of justice. If it helps in regards to having mercy on them, picture yourself in their shoes on judgement day. Think of how badly they are in need of God’s mercy. If you think our judgments will be bad, theirs will be 100 times worse as priests. They need God’s mercy, because the alternative is so unbelievably horrible.

Thank you for your insight all the same, brother. I appreciate your perspective, even if we’re sometimes at odds.

It’s sister, but thank you!

 

[JayCL]

It’s sister, but thank you!

Oh, sorry!

Think of how badly they are in need of God’s mercy. If you think our judgments will be bad, theirs will be 100 times worse as priests. They need God’s mercy, because the alternative is so unbelievably horrible.

It’s true, they do, but hurting a child is beyond heinous. I mean, rape or murder would be close, but I can think of nothing more despicable. It isn’t like it was an “accident”. A dirty man doesn’t accidentally molest a kid. I don’t know, it makes my blood boil and while I can try my best to be rational and to seek a spirit of mercy and love, I continue to come up dry when it concerns abusing children. As it is now (God forgive me), I have no compassion or mercy… I truly wish the severest of punishment on anyone who molests a child. We have levels of severity of sin (venial vs. mortal) and I know we all fall short of God’s glory (Romans), but some things are just despicable beyond words.

[Jay saunters off to find his blood pressure meds]

 

[Fauken]

Oh, sorry!

It’s alright, you’re not the first to think that! My username is ambiguous.

 

[JayCL]

My username is ambiguous.

'Tis indeed!