Question About Double Efffect and Contrception

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patricius79

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I’m on a board discussing contraception and everyone’s disagreeing with Church teaching.

We talked about the double effect, as the reason why a person can have a hysterectomy for serious medical reasons, even though this would have the unintended consequence of prevent conception in the future.

The question arises: then why can’t one use a condom to prevent the spread of HIV, even if this has the unintended consequence of preventing pregnancy?

Thanks
 
Because you have to try to remove the source of disease (via hysterectomy) to heal the woman’s health and/or save her life. You don’t HAVE to have sexual relations, even in marriage. See the difference?
 
Because you have to try to remove the source of disease (via hysterectomy) to heal the woman’s health and/or save her life. You don’t HAVE to have sexual relations, even in marriage. See the difference?
I see that much. Thank you.

But if a person has had a hysterectomy, they cannot conceive children, either, when they have sex. How is that different than using a condom when one has sex?

(I’m not doubting church teaching. I’m just trying to be prepared for their questions)

P.S. I’ll pray to Mary for your husband’s conversion to the Catholic faith, as requested.
 
The *sole * purpose of condom use is to prevent normal sexual functioning (in this case, create a barrier that prevents sperm from being deposited inside the woman.) The purpose of the hysterectomy is to restore a woman’s health, with the side effect that she will no longer be fertile (such is also why use of prescription medication commonly called “The Pill” is permissible under Church teaching when used for medicinal purposes rather than contraceptive ones.)

People who are naturally infertile or who become infertile are not obliged to be celibate if they are married, by the way. Not that you would say so, but this is a very common misunderstanding of Church teaching. People can’t change themselves or the sex act to prevent the natural end of sex. But menopause is natural, some health conditions result in infertility, etc. These people are not required to abstain from sex.
 
The *sole * purpose of condom use is to prevent normal sexual functioning (in this case, create a barrier that prevents sperm from being deposited inside the woman.) The purpose of the hysterectomy is to restore a woman’s health, with the side effect that she will no longer be fertile (such is also why use of prescription medication commonly called “The Pill” is permissible under Church teaching when used for medicinal purposes rather than contraceptive ones.)

People who are naturally infertile or who become infertile are not obliged to be celibate if they are married, by the way. Not that you would say so, but this is a very common misunderstanding of Church teaching. People can’t change themselves or the sex act to prevent the natural end of sex. But menopause is natural, some health conditions result in infertility, etc. These people are not required to abstain from sex.
Thanks for your help Pensmama.

You say that “the sole purpose of condom use is to prevent normal sexual functioning (in this case, create a barrier that prevents sperm from being deposited inside the woman).”

But why couldn’t we say that a person is using a condom for the purpose of preventing the spread of their HIV,(assuming hypothetically that this would be effective), with the SIDE EFFECT) of preventing conception?

Thanks,
Pat
 
I see that much. Thank you.

But if a person has had a hysterectomy, they cannot conceive children, either, when they have sex. How is that different than using a condom when one has sex?

(I’m not doubting church teaching. I’m just trying to be prepared for their questions)

P.S. I’ll pray to Mary for your husband’s conversion to the Catholic faith, as requested.
If the woman has a hysterectomy to resolve a (life threatening or debilitating) medical condition the intended end of the operation is the restoration of as healthy a body and normal life as possible to the woman. There is the foreseeable unintended consequence of the operation rendering the woman unable to have children. So the question at the time of the procedure is save the life of the woman or allow her to perish or live in extreme discomfort. There is not an intention against children but there is no current medical way to cure the disease and maintain fertility, and so the procedure is morally acceptable.

The woman is free to engage in marital relations with her spouse or not as they see fit for the benefit of their marriage. There are additional goods of marriage from the marital act beyond procreation, so when a person is rendered infertile (by age or medical condition) they are not required to abstain from relations even though the principle good of the act is no longer possible through no fault of their own.

When a person uses contraception (especially drugs other than to treat a medical condition), the intent is to divorce the marital act from the principle good purpose of procreation. The intent is completely different and the act is a voluntary one done with freedom of will.
 
Don’t worry,after an early surgically imposed menopause women still won’t be having too much fun.Other medical problems to sort
 
If the woman has a hysterectomy to resolve a (life threatening or debilitating) medical condition the intended end of the operation is the restoration of as healthy a body and normal life as possible to the woman. There is the foreseeable unintended consequence of the operation rendering the woman unable to have children. So the question at the time of the procedure is save the life of the woman or allow her to perish or live in extreme discomfort. There is not an intention against children but there is no current medical way to cure the disease and maintain fertility, and so the procedure is morally acceptable.

The woman is free to engage in marital relations with her spouse or not as they see fit for the benefit of their marriage. There are additional goods of marriage from the marital act beyond procreation, so when a person is rendered infertile (by age or medical condition) they are not required to abstain from relations even though the principle good of the act is no longer possible through no fault of their own.

When a person uses contraception (especially drugs other than to treat a medical condition), the intent is to divorce the marital act from the principle good purpose of procreation. The intent is completely different and the act is a voluntary one done with freedom of will.
Right I get that much.

But woman A has had a hysterectomy, and still has sex, even though conception cannot result, though she is open to it if it were possible

Woman B is using a barrier method (assuming that such a thing could prevent the spread of HIV) to prevent the spread of HIV, with the UNINTENDED consequence of preventing conception.

I can’t see the difference clearly right now.
 
Right I get that much.

But woman A has had a hysterectomy, and still has sex, even though conception cannot result, though she is open to it if it were possible

Woman B is using a barrier method (assuming that such a thing could prevent the spread of HIV) to prevent the spread of HIV, with the UNINTENDED consequence of preventing conception.

I can’t see the difference clearly right now.
Woman B is intentionally frustrating the possibility of procreation. There is another way to prevent HIV transmission - abstaining from sex.
 
Woman B is intentionally frustrating the possibility of procreation. There is another way to prevent HIV transmission - abstaining from sex.
ah, thank you. I would wish I was smarter, but I know there’s a reason I’m not.

Thanks for the help. I love this site.

Praying to Mary for you in recompense,

Pat
 
Because you have to try to remove the source of disease (via hysterectomy) to heal the woman’s health and/or save her life. You don’t HAVE to have sexual relations, even in marriage. See the difference?
Yes - why is it always assumed that sex has priority over everything else especially morality?
 
I’m on a board discussing contraception and everyone’s disagreeing with Church teaching.

We talked about the double effect, as the reason why a person can have a hysterectomy for serious medical reasons, even though this would have the unintended consequence of prevent conception in the future.

The question arises: then why can’t one use a condom to prevent the spread of HIV, even if this has the unintended consequence of preventing pregnancy?

Thanks
This was indeed discussed on another thread at length. See here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=924900

While some may argue whether or not the wearing of the condom is contraception, the point is somewhat moot, for the act is immoral for more basic reasons.

I extract the following from post #136 (should be on page 10) of the above thread:

What About Using Condoms to Prevent STD Transmission?

A well-known theologian, Fr. Martin Rhonheimer wrote an article in 2004 stating:
…a married man who is HIV infected and uses condoms to protect his wife from infection is not acting to render procreation impossible, but to prevent infection. If conception is prevented, this will be an—unintentional—side effect and will not therefore shape the moral meaning of the act as a contraceptive act.
The above frames the issue of condoms and HIV in relation to the question of what constitutes a contraceptive act. The suggestion is that if it is not contraceptive, it is not wrong. A number of theologians have pointed out however that framing the question as being about contraception fails to come to grips with the underlying moral issue, which, in fact, is not about avoiding conception. They point out the the question needs to be addressed in relation to the nature of the conjugal act and chastity.

Traditional teaching holds that sexual acts must be conjugal to be good., hence if the use of a condom prevents the sexual act from being truly conjugal, then the very choice to use a condom is in itself morally evil. Rhonheimer tries to get round this by arguing that the Church’s teaching that “each and every” sexual act between spouses must by “Open” to procreation should be understood to mean “intentional” openness, rather than “physical” openness. Otherwise he says, that the natural fertility, medical treatments and the like would also invalidate sexual intimacies of the spouses, since they too would lack physical openness.

Rhonheimer errs in that he he argues that the use of a condom as such is a pre-moral or merely “natural” description of an event, and not yet the description of a moral act. It is analogous therefore to the statement “a man was killed.” His conclusion then is inevitable: it is not until the intention (e.g., use of a condom to prevent conception, or use of a condom to prevent transmission of HIV/AIDS) is known that any moral evaluation **at all **can be made. But this is not right (according to Catholic moral theology) - the choice to use a condom constitutes a moral object.

Numerous Church documents teach that each and every conjugal act must be open to new life. Each must be of a kind that can consummate a marriage, making the husband and wife “one flesh”. Canon Law (1061) says consummation requires a conjugal act “per se apt for the generation of children”, and explains that this per se aptness is what makes the spouses one flesh. In other words, even though the question of condoms and HIV/AIDS does not turn on whether the act is an act of contraception (i.e., whether it possesses the intentionality of preventing conception), whether or not the sexual act is a “kind of behavior” that is “apt for generation” is nevertheless crucial in determining whether it is a conjugal act. Certain acts having nothing to do with contraception, such as sodomy or mutual masturbation, are also immoral (unchaste) on the basis of a similar inaptness.

It is not actual conception that renders the spouses one flesh. What is necessary is that the sexual act be the appropriate kind of behaviour, it must be such as to permit the sort of mutual communication in which the husband communicates his “flesh” and the woman receives it, regardless of whether other factors such as age, or sterility prevent this communication from being fruitful in particular cases.

The “non-contraceptive” use of condoms is a failure with respect to aptness for generation. It likewise cannot communicate the husband’s substance to the wife in the way that is pertinent to a conjugal act, even when no contraceptive intent is present. Thus, freely adopting (and therefore intending) such acts as the object of choice implies the pursuit of sexual pleasure without the communication objectively necessary for conjugal love.

Such acts are therefore distinct from the sexual union of infertile spouses, whether that infertility results from natural causes (such as menopause), hormone therapy, hysterectomy, low sperm count, or the wife’s natural cycles. Infertile spouses can become one flesh in their sexual relations because the communication of bodies does occur in their sexual intimacy, although the normal fruit of this communication is not possible. Conjugal relations under these circumstances are not “inapt” for generation; they are simply ineffective.

Source: communio-icr.com/articles…s-and-hiv-aids
Much of the above text borrows directly from the above source and is reproduced here for the ease of study by readers. I recommend reading the source for a fuller picture.
 
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