Question about Judas

[TARRAT]

If you go back to my orginal post I NEVER claimed he was in Heaven, Hell, or anywere inbetween…

I guess I misunderstood your previous question. I thought “what are you referring too?” meant that you disputed that he was in hell. If you were referring to my statement about not knowing if something happened that was in reference to the statement about free will and whether or not Judas had it. The point is that scripture could have been fulfilled one way or the other. Others could have been tempted to betray Jesus but did not but Judas had the free will to go that same route but he had the free will and chose to betray Jesus. :twocents:

 

[caitlinm]

I guess I misunderstood your previous question. I thought “what are you referring too?” meant that you disputed that he was in hell. If you were referring to my statement about not knowing if something happened that was in reference to the statement about free will and whether or not Judas had it. The point is that scripture could have been fulfilled one way or the other. Others could have been tempted to betray Jesus but did not but Judas had the free will to go that same route but he had the free will and chose to betray Jesus. :twocents:

Sorry for getting snippy with you, just a case of mutual misunderstanding

 

[littlestsouls2]

Jesus revealed some beautiful words to Bl. Battista Varani, regarding His love for Judas:
”Another sorrow, which pierced My Heart continually, like a three-edged and poisoned blade, was the impiety and ingratitude of Judas, first My beloved disciple, then My wicked betrayer… Consider first the ingratitude of Judas, whom I chose for one of My apostles… When I saw the design of betraying Me forming in his heart, I redoubled the proofs of My tenderness, to turn him from his criminal thoughts, but it was of no avail; nothing would touch his wicked heart. On the contrary, the more affection I showed him, the more he was hardened in his perfidious resolution. When, at the Last Supper, I performed the humble and touching ceremony of washing My disciples’ feet, My Heart could not contain itself; but I wept bitterly, and watered his polluted feet with My tears, for I said within Myself: ‘O Judas! what have I then done to you, that you should betray Me thus? O unhappy disciple! is this to be the last proof I shall ever be able to give of My love for you? O son of perdition! why dost thou leave Thy Father and Master? O Judas, if you would have thirty pieces of silver, why not go and ask them from My Mother thine; she would sell herself to free thee and Me from danger and death. Ah! ungrateful disciple, today I wash thy feet, and kiss them with so much love, and in a few hours thou wilt kiss My Face, to deliver Me up to My enemies. O dear and beloved son, what a return thou makest to One who weeps the loss of thee more than His own Passion and death, because for this He came into this world.’"

No doubt, Our Lady, Hope of the Despairing, was interceding for his salvation. If Judas is damned, it is because he died impenitent.

 

[Gorgias]

Caitlin, exactly! Free will I such a hard concept to grasp for me. Some say God has a plan others say we choose.

God’s plan is that we choose.

A choice so large as to betray the son of God to his death had to be in Gods plan. I don’t understand how it could not be.

The fact that God knew it would happen – that is, that He had it figured into His plan – doesn’t mean that He made it happen. When a quarterback has a plan (for instance, on third and long, knowing that the other team blitzes, and knowing that his response to the blitz will be to go to a ‘hot route’ and try to get off a quick pass), that doesn’t mean that he causes the blitz or forces it to happen – it just means that he knows that a blitz will lead him to put his plan in motion.

 

[EllisWoods]

Because we all have free will.

Did Pharoah exercise free will when God hardened his heart? How do you know the same didn’t happen to Judas? What would have happened to the salvation plan if in exercising his free will Judas chose not to betray Jesus?

 

[Gorgias]

Did Pharoah exercise free will when God hardened his heart?

This is one of the problems of an overly-literalist interpretation of Scripture that doesn’t take into account the worldview of the culture of the inspired writer.

In the ancient Semitic worldview, God was directly responsible for every action of each of His creations – if there was something that happened that God wasn’t responsible for, then (according to their viewpoint) it harmed their notion that God was in charge. It was only later that theologians and philosophers posited the notion of ‘primary’ and ‘secondary’ causation.

So, when we see the inspired writer say that “God hardened Pharoah’s heart”, we can recognize two notions in play: first, Pharoah was disinclined to allow God’s will for the Israelites to come to pass; and second, God was nevertheless in charge, even though Pharaoh was attempting to defy Him.

This doesn’t mean, however, that God obliterated or interfered with Pharaoh’s free will.

 

[thistle]

We can agree to disagree.

What do you disagree with?

CCC 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

CCC 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for** our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.** However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

CCC 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "Hell."

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Don’t be too dismissive of Dante. His theology is pretty sound. He took the trouble to make sure he got things right. There are times, of course, when he is being deliberately provocative and polemical, such as his portrayal of Pope Nicholas III in Canto 19. But in Canto 34, when we meet the three archtraitors, Dante makes it clear that Brutus and Cassius are there because they were traitors to the Empire, i.e. to well-ordered society, whereas Judas suffers the greatest penalty, the *maggior pena *(34.61), because he betrayed God.

He could be 100% accurate in his depictions of various folks and the state of their souls but we do not know for certain because he is not infallible, only the Pope is, and the bishops in union with him, when teaching and/or explaining the Gospel, i.e., the Catholic faith. All we can say is that it appears what Dante said is true because he was theologically orthodox but ultimately it boils down to guesswork as to his accuracy. This of course also applies to theologians and scripture scholars as they are not infallible either.

 

[Gorgias]

He could be 100% accurate in his depictions of various folks and the state of their souls but we do not know for certain because he is not infallible, only the Pope is, and the bishops in union with him, when teaching and/or explaining the Gospel, i.e., the Catholic faith. All we can say is that it appears what Dante said is true because he was theologically orthodox but ultimately it boils down to guesswork as to his accuracy. This of course also applies to theologians and scripture scholars as they are not infallible either.

The issue isn’t so much whether Dante is infallible, but whether he’s authoritative in his assertions. He isn’t – only the magisterium is. Whether or not the magisterium speaks infallibly, it speaks authoritatively, and thus Catholics listen to its pronouncements. Dante, on the other hand, might be learned and might be attempting to explain things as he understands them… but he doesn’t do so with the weight of Church authority to back him up.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

First off Dante does not speak for the Church. What he wrote were works of fiction.

Second, God does not send anyone to Hell. People have freewill and those who have committed mortal sins and die in that state have freely chosen to reject God’s love and go to Hell.

Because God is eternally present (outside time) he knew Judas would betray Jesus. He did not make him betray Jesus.

He also knew Peter would deny him.

The difference between Peter and Judas is that Judas so despaired at his actions he chose suicide rather than repenting.

Peter repented.

 

[Maxirad]

It’s my understanding that Judas is indeed in Hell. If you don’t believe me, check out Acts 1:16–20 as well as Acts 1:24–25.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The Catholic Church has not declared him to be in hell. He may have repented before the noose took his life. We will only know if and when we get there.

 

[Maxirad]

Check this out.

 

[Gorgias]

Check this out.

Since it’s rather short, allow me to quote it:

Jesus said, “Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24). While this statement implies that Judas’s final destination was hell, it cannot be known whether or not he repented of his sins before his death, and so it cannot be said with certainty that he is in hell.

Here’s the thing: Jesus says “it would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” Does that necessarily mean that Judas is in hell? I think not. It’s not conclusive that the only interpretation revolves around Judas’ eternal fate. It would seem to me that it could legitimately be speaking about:

• the intensity of purgation that a redeemed Judas would have to suffer before he would be able to enter heaven, or…
• the reputation he’d gain for all time as the betrayer of Jesus, or…
• the pain and guilt that he felt when he realized what he had done, or…
• the pain and guilt that he felt (as he hung between heaven and earth) when he realized that, for a second time, he’d blown it and sinned against God.

Or, in fact, any combination, or all of these. It’s not necessarily the case that Jesus is referring to eternal damnation.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hello everyone,

I’ve been wondering about this for a while and decided to post, since I’m mostly a lurker. For the most part I’ve read that Judas is in hell. For example, Dante’s inferno etc. I understand that he hung himself, therefore, condemning himself, but, many argue he is in he’ll also for betraying Jesus and sending him to his crucifixion. But wasn’t it part of Gods plan for him to betray him, since someone had to to lead to the saving of mans soul? If he didn’t then it is possible that such saving would not have taken place? I’m having trouble understanding that someone would be sent to hell for being involved in Gods plan.

Apologies for poor grammar, I’m on a mobile, lol.

Thanks

God allows for free will. It was not God’s Will that set the original sin of Adam and Eve in action. So, because God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, did He still have the consequences happen? yes.