Question about kissing

[VertHorizon]

I’m currently friends with a gentleman that I’ve been seeing seriously but not dating for over a month though he wants more but has left it up to me to decide if I want more. He has been previously married four times. The first two went through the Church’s tribunal system and declared invalid. He then married again in Vegas and divorced and then married again before a judge and then divorced. He is Catholic though he doesn’t practice. I understand that he is still married according to the Church after searching forums.

My question involves kissing him. Though I knew he had been married before it really didn’t sink in until last week after I had kissed. I’m worried since he is still married that I committed a sin when I kissed him. I know that I’m not going to be anything more than friends with this man because I’m not romanticaly interested in him and want to stay friends but I’m concerned that I committed a sin when I kissed him. I intend to talk to a priest but I’m concerned that this a sin I’m going to need to confess and since I’mgoing to Confession this Thursday I would like to know. Thank you.

 

[triumphguy]

Big or small sin - it’s upsetting you - so just confess it anyway.

There’s no point system for sins: As if it’s over 4.5/10 then confess it. If it’s over 8/10 you are going to hell unless you confess it.

Mortal sin is mortal sin: and you need knowledge of grave matter, and free will or consent to sin.

All else is venial sin.

However, if something you have done upsets you then confess it anyway.

 

[bzkoss236]

Also, seeing as you are not the one who is still considered married, I would say it is he that has sinned, and not so much you.

 

[VertHorizon]

Thank you both for responding. I plan on asking Father when I go to Confession. It didn’t bother me when I first kissed him but go to thinking about it later so was concerned. I’ll probably confess it.

I do have to add, cause I’m weird, that kissing this guy was the first time I had ever been kissed. I may be over thinking things. That’s just the way that I am. I really didn’t feel any special feeling so I’ve told him I’m not interested when asked since he’s had more relationship experience than I’ve had. He’s put the ball in my court so to speak about where to take the relationship and won’t push me though he’s made it clear he wants more but respects the fact I just want to be friends. I’d like it if he’s return to the Church but I won’t push him. He does the fact that my faith is implortant to me.

Thank you for letting me ramble on like this. And for reading and responding.

 

[triumphguy]

To be honest 4 marriages rings a lot of warning bells. And if you are relatively inexperienced I think you need to be extra vigilant.

 

[twoangels]

I’m currently friends with a gentleman that I’ve been seeing seriously but not dating for over a month though he wants more but has left it up to me to decide if I want more. He has been previously married four times. The first two went through the Church’s tribunal system and declared invalid. He then married again in Vegas and divorced and then married again before a judge and then divorced. He is Catholic though he doesn’t practice. I understand that he is still married according to the Church after searching forums.

So the Church declared his first two marriages invalid and his other two marriages were outside of the Church? Canon law doesn’t permit us to validly marry outside of the laws of the Church. Thus if we can trust the Church’s ruling that his first two ceremonies were invalid, than he’s not married.

That said, the man doesn’t sound like he takes marriage seriously and tends to be content with serial monogamy. He also doesn’t sound like the type of man that would protect your virtue. it sounds like he’d wait for your consent, but he might not think it wrong to put you in temptation’s way.

Sometimes sounds off, and I’d be very cautious about spending a lot of time with him.

My question involves kissing him. Though I knew he had been married before it really didn’t sink in until last week after I had kissed. I’m worried since he is still married that I committed a sin when I kissed him. I know that I’m not going to be anything more than friends with this man because I’m not romanticaly interested in him and want to stay friends but I’m concerned that I committed a sin when I kissed him.

The issue is not about his marital status. The issue is about whether or not the sign of affection is suitable to your relationship. Is it an expression of lust (just following your passion) or does it honestly communicate something about the development of your relationship. If you aren’t interested in someone, than kissing would seem a dishonest action and lust filled.

 

[VertHorizon]

To be honest 4 marriages rings a lot of warning bells. And if you are relatively inexperienced I think you need to be extra vigilant.

Yes. It rang bells for me too. I even told him when he told me that he probably shouldn’t get married again. He wants more and has pushed but I’ve pushed back. I’ve even told him upfront that I will physically defend myself if I have to. He’s never threatened me and I don’t get that vibe from him but I will stand up for myself.

I plan on having a very serious talk with about all this Thursday when we have our next lunch. The only thing I want to be is friends and even that might change to being acquaintances if things keep going a way that I don’t want them as in he keeps pushing. My impression from him and the way he acts is that he likes having a woman in his life but not much beyond that. Especially at his age (29) and with previous marriages.

Thing is, I was taught not to trust myself or my feelings at heavy cost to myself. I was more likely to be wrong than right or in many cases, always wrong and never right is what was drummed into head. So I have a hard time trusting myself and my judgement when something seems off because I’ve been told I’m imagining things or even outright lying and that person is trustworthy when they are not and I’ve been hurt before. So that’s why I’ve had to ask and to make sure that I’m not imagining things.

 

[VertHorizon]

Twoangels, I tried quoting your post in my reply but technical difficulties unfortunately means it won’t happen and I apologize for not being able to direct my reply to helpful post.

With regards to his marriages, I found in searching these forums that while he did marry outside the Church and would most likely declared invalid due to form, he was and is married. While the marriage may not be sacramental, the Church still recognizes it. It would be up to him if he so desired to file with the tribunal to have the marriage declared invalid. I won’t make him file but I would suggest it to him as a means of protesting his immortal soul.

As for my virtue, I’ve made it clear that I will physically defend myself from him if I have to. I’ve already made it clear that there will be no sex or anything else for that matter. I won’t even let him hold my hand anymore. I’m just not interested in him beyond friendship.

The issue with the kiss only started to bother me after I made it clear that I just wanted to be friends. I just didn’t feel anything and left me going “this is kissing?” in
my head. It felt more like an experiment than anything else and if you asked me to take it or leave it, I’d leave it. Granted I have no prior experience with this kind ofthing but my impression is that you should feel something, even if it’s just for the person and mot necessarily for the kiss.

Sorry, bedtime for me since I have to get up early for work and need sleep. Thank you for your help. Have a good night and I’ll check back tomorrow.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes. It rang bells for me too. I even told him when he told me that he probably shouldn’t get married again. He wants more and has pushed but I’ve pushed back. I’ve even told him upfront that I will physically defend myself if I have to. He’s never threatened me and I don’t get that vibe from him but I will stand up for myself.

I plan on having a very serious talk with about all this Thursday when we have our next lunch. The only thing I want to be is friends and even that might change to being acquaintances if things keep going a way that I don’t want them as in he keeps pushing. My impression from him and the way he acts is that he likes having a woman in his life but not much beyond that. Especially at his age (29) and with previous marriages.

Thing is, I was taught not to trust myself or my feelings at heavy cost to myself. I was more likely to be wrong than right or in many cases, always wrong and never right is what was drummed into head. So I have a hard time trusting myself and my judgement when something seems off because I’ve been told I’m imagining things or even outright lying and that person is trustworthy when they are not and I’ve been hurt before. So that’s why I’ve had to ask and to make sure that I’m not imagining things.

If you can’t trust your gut, trust history It usually repeats itself!

 

[twoangels]

Twoangels, I tried quoting your post in my reply but technical difficulties unfortunately means it won’t happen and I apologize for not being able to direct my reply to helpful post.

With regards to his marriages, I found in searching these forums that while he did marry outside the Church and would most likely declared invalid due to form, he was and is married. While the marriage may not be sacramental, the Church still recognizes it.

Do you have a link to this discussion? This does not sound accurate. Whether a marriage is sacramental or not is dependant on whether the individuals are both baptized, not the form of the wedding. Moreover, Catholics who do marry outside and want to put themselves in right standing with the Church need to obtain a convalidation for the Church to recognize the marriage.

As for my virtue, I’ve made it clear that I will physically defend myself from him if I have to. I’ve already made it clear that there will be no sex or anything else for that matter. I won’t even let him hold my hand anymore. I’m just not interested in him beyond friendship.

Its important to be realistic about our fallen nature and others’.

The issue with the kiss only started to bother me after I made it clear that I just wanted to be friends. I just didn’t feel anything and left me going “this is kissing?” in
my head. It felt more like an experiment than anything else and if you asked me to take it or leave it, I’d leave it. Granted I have no prior experience with this kind ofthing but my impression is that you should feel something, even if it’s just for the person and mot necessarily for the kiss.

If kissing is done at all, it should be after a relationship has developed a bit. The affection and good will and interest have to be building independant of physical affection. I don’t think the kiss was a mortal sin, but I think its imprudent and inappropriate and thus worthy of confessing unless you have a long list of graver sins. We’re required to confess grave sins, but not all our venial. Still it is benefitial to confess venial.

 

[twoangels]

Yes. It rang bells for me too. I even told him when he told me that he probably shouldn’t get married again. He wants more and has pushed but I’ve pushed back. I’ve even told him upfront that I will physically defend myself if I have to. He’s never threatened me and I don’t get that vibe from him but I will stand up for myself.

I plan on having a very serious talk with about all this Thursday when we have our next lunch. The only thing I want to be is friends and even that might change to being acquaintances if things keep going a way that I don’t want them as in he keeps pushing. My impression from him and the way he acts is that he likes having a woman in his life but not much beyond that. Especially at his age (29) and with previous marriages.

This may be a friendship you will have to end. When I was 19, I became friends with a man a little older and more experienced. He kept telling me I was being over scruplous. He’d insist “friends can cuddle” and would always want very long hugs. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I felt very responsible for his spiritual life. I was his primary motivation for going to Mass. He’d tell me “If you’re not going to Heaven, no one has a chance.” He told me being with me was the closest he could get to having a relationship with God. I’d drag him to confession and Mass, etc. After he pushed things, at some other women’s advise, I decided to “open my heart” and "give him a chance, so I dated him. This seemed to give him permission to push my boundaries even more. After about two months of dating, I broke up with him but became committed to being his friend. He still kept pushing the friends could cuddle thing, and it was harder to avoid previously begun habits. A priest advised me to end the friendship. It was very hard for me to do. For one, I was raised in a family where ending or refusing friendships was unacceptable. I thought accepting everyone was a part of our Catholic faith. Had it not been a priest telling me to end it, I probably would have continued to struggle with virtue while being his friend.

He guessed I was taking counsel from a priest and then accused me of being a terrible Christian. He blamed the priest for taking me away from him, and told me he’d never go to confession or mass again because of it.

I’d urge you to keep yourself morally safe and him morally safe by recognizing big warning flags to cut off contact.

“Do not be led astray: ‘Bad company corrupts good morals.’” 1 Cor 15:33

 

[CatholicServant]

I’m currently friends with a gentleman that I’ve been seeing seriously but not dating for over a month though he wants more but has left it up to me to decide if I want more. He has been previously married four times. The first two went through the Church’s tribunal system and declared invalid. He then married again in Vegas and divorced and then married again before a judge and then divorced. He is Catholic though he doesn’t practice. I understand that he is still married according to the Church after searching forums.

My question involves kissing him. Though I knew he had been married before it really didn’t sink in until last week after I had kissed. I’m worried since he is still married that I committed a sin when I kissed him. I know that I’m not going to be anything more than friends with this man because I’m not romanticaly interested in him and want to stay friends but I’m concerned that I committed a sin when I kissed him. I intend to talk to a priest but I’m concerned that this a sin I’m going to need to confess and since I’mgoing to Confession this Thursday I would like to know. Thank you.

Yes, it appears that this gentleman is still validly married to wife number 3 and any romantic interaction with a married man is a sin and needs to be confessed to a priest.

 

[VertHorizon]

Do you have a link to this discussion? This does not sound accurate. Whether a marriage is sacramental or not is dependant on whether the individuals are both baptized, not the form of the wedding. Moreover, Catholics who do marry outside and want to put themselves in right standing with the Church need to obtain a convalidation for the Church to recognize the marriage.

Its important to be realistic about our fallen nature and others’.

If kissing is done at all, it should be after a relationship has developed a bit. The affection and good will and interest have to be building independant of physical affection. I don’t think the kiss was a mortal sin, but I think its imprudent and inappropriate and thus worthy of confessing unless you have a long list of graver sins. We’re required to confess grave sins, but not all our venial. Still it is benefitial to confess venial.

I can’t exactly remember the words I used but it was something to the effect of dating and previous marriages. I read through multiple threads to make of the answer. At the end of the day, I still need to talk to a priest since he would know better than an online forum.

I also think it was definitely innappropriate and a sin. Grave or not, I do my best to confess all my sins.

After today, I’m going to make it very clear that we shouldn’t really hang out any more. Maybe not at all. I keep picking up and seeing warning signs. So I’ll be having a very serious talk at our lunch tomorrow.

 

[VertHorizon]

Yes, it appears that this gentleman is still validly married to wife number 3 and any romantic interaction with a married man is a sin and needs to be confessed to a priest.

This what I thought and wanted to make sure but I’m still going to talk to the priest when I go to Confession. He’s better trained than an online forum.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[VertHorizon]

This may be a friendship you will have to end. When I was 19, I became friends with a man a little older and more experienced. He kept telling me I was being over scruplous. He’d insist “friends can cuddle” and would always want very long hugs. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I felt very responsible for his spiritual life. I was his primary motivation for going to Mass. He’d tell me “If you’re not going to Heaven, no one has a chance.” He told me being with me was the closest he could get to having a relationship with God. I’d drag him to confession and Mass, etc. After he pushed things, at some other women’s advise, I decided to “open my heart” and "give him a chance, so I dated him. This seemed to give him permission to push my boundaries even more. After about two months of dating, I broke up with him but became committed to being his friend. He still kept pushing the friends could cuddle thing, and it was harder to avoid previously begun habits. A priest advised me to end the friendship. It was very hard for me to do. For one, I was raised in a family where ending or refusing friendships was unacceptable. I thought accepting everyone was a part of our Catholic faith. Had it not been a priest telling me to end it, I probably would have continued to struggle with virtue while being his friend.

He guessed I was taking counsel from a priest and then accused me of being a terrible Christian. He blamed the priest for taking me away from him, and told me he’d never go to confession or mass again because of it.

I’d urge you to keep yourself morally safe and him morally safe by recognizing big warning flags to cut off contact.

“Do not be led astray: ‘Bad company corrupts good morals.’” 1 Cor 15:33

I’m almost 31 so I’m not that naive but I understand what you are saying. And I appreciate your reply. I’m not upset by your reply. I actually believe your answer might also help someone who is reading this thread and is in a similar situation. My situation is a little different than yours but like I said understand and appreciate what you’ve written.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

Honestly, 2 things come to mind.

Firstly, 4 marriages. All failed. Only 2 of them declared invalid. (Has even tried for the others?)

Secondly, if you are not romantically interested in him, why kiss him at all? Kissing leads to other things if you’re not careful.

 

[twoangels]

Yes, it appears that this gentleman is still validly married to wife number 3 and any romantic interaction with a married man is a sin and needs to be confessed to a priest.

I really would like to see the original discussion on this topic. He married outside of the Catholic Church. If he is indeed Catholic, this is automatically invalid. This is why we, as Catholics, are advised not to attend such weddings, especially as an official witness. We would be bearing false witness.

Certainly, if he wanted to get married in the Church, he would have to still get an annullment, but its important to understand that an annullment doesn’t make a valid marriage invalid. It legally declares (legal in regards to Canon Law) that he did not enter a valid marriage and thus would be free to marry.

In the case of a wedding not according to the form, all that is needed for the legal (again, Canon Law legal, not civil legal) declaration of nullity is the right documents. There is no waiting for the tribunal to rule on it. Its a legal formality and a guarentee that it’ll go through UNLESS he’s lying about the circumstances of his marriage. If that is the case, she’s in total ignorance.

If it were an issue that involved witnesses and a true ruling by the marriage tribunal, than its wise to view the individuals as validly married because the circumstances are more complex. It depends on the judgment of the marriage tribunal.

That said, the marriage tribunals are not infallible or necessarily free of corruption. They can free us of personal responsibility for any wrong decisions. Pope Benedict and Pope JP II, however, criticized the US marriage tribunals. catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5294

I seriously doubt that criticism has anything to do with the case of violation of form. Its not the only time the system the Church puts in place to protect the indissolubility of marriage is played.

In this situation, I think submitting the case to the marriage tribunal would simply be unnecessary paperwork. In fact, considering that my sacramental records couldn’t be dated longer than 6 months prior to my wedding for them to be used, there is a chance the documents would still have to be submitted if he ever decided to get married again in the Church.

That said, the fact that he has been jumping in and out of “marriages”, had two annulled, and two outside of the Church would indicate that beyond the validity of his previous marriages, this is a man who doesn’t respect marriage and would need a radical conversion to be capable of making valid matrimonial vows. The fact that he’s pushing things with the OP, further illustrates a character that is very questionable. I wouldn’t say its a sin to date him, but imprudent to. But if you were interested in someone who got married outside of the Church years ago before a religious conversion and now did take marriage and the Catholic faith seriously, I wouldn’t waste the tribunals time to submit paperwork to proove to the Church it was outside of form and thus invalid.

If someone knows of a greater authortative post (from an apologist or canon lawyer), I would be interested in seeing this.