question about mass

[lisettecherie]

I am new to church going. I went to two different churches. At the first there was kneeling and not any arms in the air. At the second there were no kneelers and standing was done instead and at various times throughout the mass people were raising their arms in the air. Also at the “arms in the air” mass they sang the our father which i do not remember from the first church. Both of these were catholic churches, which of these is the more appropriate to be attending? I was not raised in any church but have been draw to catholicism by the rosary one of which was given to me and i have learned to pray. these services seemed very different, is one more appropriate than the other?

 

[excelsus]

The one with kneeling is more appropriate.

 

[jmcrae]

The one with kneeling is more appropriate.

I agree. Although the “arms in the air” thing (Charismatic spirituality) is not forbidden, they aren’t supposed to be doing that sort of thing at Mass.

 

[MarkThompson]

I agree. Although the “arms in the air” thing (Charismatic spirituality) is not forbidden, they aren’t supposed to be doing that sort of thing at Mass.

Unfortunately, from the original post we don’t know enough to say which is more “appropriate.” At one church, the Our Father was sung (good) but people had their arms in the air (not in itself a problem, but often indicative of a “certain type” of church). At the other, the Our Father was spoken (lame, but all too common), and apparently people didn’t have their arms in the air, though we don’t know anything else about the Mass.

We also don’t know anything about the poster (yet!) – if has yearning for age-old traditionalism, he may fit in better at a parish with more traditional worship; if he’s into charismatic spirituality, it might be easier for him to come to the Church through a parish of that style.

If the original poster can tell us more, it might be easier to come to some tentative conclusions. Either way, the Rosary is definitely a great first step!

 

[Pilgrimage]

Both of these were catholic churches, which of these is the more appropriate to be attending? I was not raised in any church but have been draw to catholicism by the rosary one of which was given to me and i have learned to pray. these services seemed very different, is one more appropriate than the other?

You should chose a worship style that suit your Lord and yourself, not others. Lift your hands to bless and praise His Holy name. Kneel before Him in humility.

“I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” (1 Timothy 2:8)

A Song of Ascents. Behold, bless the LORD, all servants of the LORD, Who serve by night in the house of the LORD! Lift up your hands to the sanctuary And bless the LORD. (Psalm 134: 2-3)

“For this reason I kneel before the Father,” Ephesians 3:14

God bless

 

[I_Fortuna]

I agree. Although the “arms in the air” thing (Charismatic spirituality) is not forbidden, they aren’t supposed to be doing that sort of thing at Mass.

Are you kidding? Who are you t say who should do what at Mass. They are both correct only one is more traditional. We sing the Our Father. In Ancient times all prayer was sung. Standing was the only appropriate attitude in prayer and raising the hands is very ancient. It is called the Orans posture the Latin word for praying. It is still used in Jewish Temples and by Eastern churches.

Kneeling did not start until the Middle Ages when pews were beginning to be constructed for churches. This was the posture of asking favors of the king and forbidden at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD due to it being improper during prayer of the Resurrection because it is considered penitential.

Currently either is correct according to the community and the priest leading the Mass.

Honestly, what does it matter. It matters more what is in your heart. Jesus already admonsihed the Jews for their foolishness and some of their laws he considered useless. Go to whichever one you feel most comfortable at.

 

[lisettecherie]

Thank you all for your replies. When one is raised without religion and has no idea what to expect and then to find two so very different situations with in the same “church” it can be confusing as to which is the correct version. Which seems both are correct, just different. I tend to think I am more a traditional type person and I did feel the kneeling had a more “right” feel. I look forward to absorbing all the knoweledge to be had here. Thank you all again.

 

[Corki]

Are you kidding? Who are you t say who should do what at Mass. They are both correct only one is more traditional. We sing the Our Father. In Ancient times all prayer was sung. Standing was the only appropriate attitude in prayer and raising the hands is very ancient. It is called the Orans posture the Latin word for praying. It is still used in Jewish Temples and by Eastern churches.

Kneeling did not start until the Middle Ages when pews were beginning to be constructed for churches. This was the posture of asking favors of the king and forbidden at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD due to it being improper during prayer of the Resurrection because it is considered penitential.

Currently either is correct according to the community and the priest leading the Mass.
Honestly, what does it matter. It matters more what is in your heart. Jesus already admonsihed the Jews for their foolishness and some of their laws he considered useless. Go to whichever one you feel most comfortable at.

Either is referring to what, exactly? If you are saying that either kneeling or standing is correct, I am afraid that is misleading. Assuming this is a Latin Rite Church, kneeling is required at certain times of the Mass. While there are some exceptions “according to the community and the priest” is not one of them.

Singing the Our Father is not a problem - in different Masses, the Our Father may be spoken, sung or chanted - all are correct. Putting hands in the air (which is NOT the same as the orans posture) is not forbidden. However, it is probablly an indication of a more charismatic style of worship than many people are comfortable with.

Based on the kneeling issue alone, the first parish seems more authentic. As an inquirer, I suggest you go for the parish that is saying Mass according to the Church’s own norms.

 

[MarkThompson]

Thank you all for your replies. When one is raised without religion and has no idea what to expect and then to find two so very different situations with in the same “church” it can be confusing as to which is the correct version. Which seems both are correct, just different. I tend to think I am more a traditional type person and I did feel the kneeling had a more “right” feel. I look forward to absorbing all the knoweledge to be had here. Thank you all again.

Good – also, I’m sorry for calling you a “he” . . . now that I notice your username, it doesn’t seem all that masculine!

 

[pismopal]

I agree. Although the “arms in the air” thing (Charismatic spirituality) is not forbidden, they aren’t supposed to be doing that sort of thing at Mass.

I agree and add that “priestly gestures” as in “…”…and also with you" accompanied by gesturing with the arms…is also common and not called for. This is more commonly seen in California than in other states I have visited…also unknown in Europe.

 

[lisettecherie]

No, not a he but greatful for the reply in any case.

 

[frindro]

You should not raise your hands, but should kneel (at least, if you’re Catholic). I would like to bombard you all with some links for those of you doubters.

Handraising:
Karl Keating’s a critic: catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060411.asp
From Quick Questions: catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=2577
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1082
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1760

Kneeling:
From Quick Questions: catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1255 (see that I_Fortuna, the Council of Nicea supported kneeling, rather than oppose it)
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=277 (also, I_Fortuna, see how it’s not based on what the priest or the congregation wants)
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=209
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=2037 (kneeling is pre-Medieval)
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=2405
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1575
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=2299
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1613
“The Struggle for Uniformity in the Liturgy”: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312fea1.asp

And just to top it off, this calls raising hands, as well as not kneeling, liturgical abuses.

I don’t have any resources specifically for Canada, but, as far as I’m aware, no hands in the air here. Also, there should definitely be kneeling during Mass.

If I’m not mistaken, there might be some changes with regard to kneeling with the upcoming changes, but I assume there will still be no hand-raising, and kneeling will remain, though when you kneel might change (you can check for yourselves if this is true - I spent enough time finding these links).

 

[corsair]

Its amazing, Lisette, how opinionated us Traditional Catholics can be. But thats OK, as long as we admit that we can be wrong on ocassion.

It all boils down to; do you like the more modern version of Catholic worship or the more Traditional variety. Try to experience both, then decide.

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

Standing was the only appropriate attitude in prayer and raising the hands is very ancient. It is called the Orans posture the Latin word for praying.

There is a huge difference between the Orans posture, and hands raised up in the air.

The Orans posture is with your elbows level with your waist, and your hands, below, level with your thighs, with palms facing forward, and standing still. This posture is for the priest; lay people aren’t supposed to be doing this.

“Hands in the air” is with your elbows level with your ears, and hands above your head, waving around in every direction. While perfectly suited for prayer meetings outside of Mass, this isn’t a posture that we find in the General Instruction for the Roman Missal.

 

[VetA]

Are you kidding? Who are you t say who should do what at Mass. They are both correct only one is more traditional. We sing the Our Father. In Ancient times all prayer was sung. Standing was the only appropriate attitude in prayer and raising the hands is very ancient. It is called the Orans posture the Latin word for praying. It is still used in Jewish Temples and by Eastern churches.

Kneeling did not start until the Middle Ages when pews were beginning to be constructed for churches. This was the posture of asking favors of the king and forbidden at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD due to it being improper during prayer of the Resurrection because it is considered penitential.

Currently either is correct according to the community and the priest leading the Mass.

Honestly, what does it matter. It matters more what is in your heart. Jesus already admonsihed the Jews for their foolishness and some of their laws he considered useless. Go to whichever one you feel most comfortable at.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17-19[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 10:9-16[/BIBLEDRB]

you should back your statements up with scripture, Jesus did not abolish the law He fulfilled it

the Holy Mass is the most beautiful sacrifice that humans can comprehend, do you not think that we should show reverence and respect for the Mass , and most espically for God. during the TLM the WHOLE Mass is sung btw. but if the prayers are being sung in such a way that it can offer scandal to even a non-catholic then most probablly it would be best to look at and change the way it is done

 

[yinekka]

1. The word ‘mass’ when referring to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass requires a capital M.
2. It is a pity that no two Latin Rite Catholic churches celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass strictly according to the rubrics but you can get a good idea of those rubrics if you watch the Mass on EWTN or watch the Holy Father’s Masses.
3. There is an old sayind “say the black and do the red”. I have a Sunday and a Daily Missal and nowhere in the rubrics can I find an instruction that all are to put their hands in the air or hold hands at the Our Father at a certain point.
4. The documents of the Vatican Council : Sacrosanctum Concillum Ch III no3. “No one whatsoever, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on their own authority.”

So, what Mass should you attend? Ideally the Mass which is celebrated according to the rubrics as seen on EWTN or the Masses of the Holy Father. Practically, the Mass celebrated in a church you can reach easily. Remember, no matter how whacky the Mass is, as long as the priest intends to do what the Church believes, the Mass will be valid and the host and wine will be the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Masses I am speaking about are those of the Ordinary Form. Masses in the Extraordinary Form - Latin - should all be the same.

 

[MarkThompson]

the Holy Mass is the most beautiful sacrifice that humans can comprehend, do you not think that we should show reverence and respect for the Mass , and most espically for God. during the TLM the WHOLE Mass is sung btw. but if the prayers are being sung in such a way that it can offer scandal to even a non-catholic then most probablly it would be best to look at and change the way it is done

LOL, rarely. Historically, the vast, vast majority of TLMs have had no music at all, or maybe some vernacular hymns sung by the congregation while the Mass was going on. It’s only because there are so few TLMs nowadays that more effort gets put into the ones that are celebrated.

Also, “to cause scandal” does not mean “to shock or surprise,” it means, to lead others to sin through an evil act.