Question About Sexual Relations

[paulah]

brief interuption/hi jack

'scuse me Setter, but could you puh-leeze tell me the name of vitamins/herbs you are currently taking!?!?
I want some.

You are one of the clearest thinking chaps around here.
Bravo to you, Man! :tiphat:

 

[fix]

This is exactly what I have a problem with. It states that conjugal love must be open to fertility.

If you are deliberately timing your relations so that they are during an infertile time, then you are not open to fertility. I have quoted the Handbook of Moral Theology as to why NFP/rythm method is allowed but this does not satisfy me because NFP is used with the notion that you can delay pregnancy for extended periods of time (for grave reasons of course). The procreative aspects have been removed from the conjugal act…

That is not accurate. With NFP the act is complete, unaltered, and both aspects of the act are intact no matter whether conception is possible or not. Procreative does not mean simply mean conception will or will not take place.

 

[fix]

Now it’s time to get real…I am speaking for most AMERICANS…in this CENTURY
Reality, people, reality, is…my marriage, my business.

Reality is that God has revealed His will to us in these matters through His Church.

 

[fix]

I will go further to ask, how is that different than popping a pill or a condom?

Please see HV for a start in this matter. The difference is that NFP does not contradict what God has ordained. The act is unaltered. Contraception intentionally alters the act.

unless I missed something. To understand the proper teaching of the church you would have to be sitting at the table with whoever wrote all this church doctrine down, because it seems to me, that the doctrine is thicker than the Bible itself. I don’t look, never have as the catholic church of “don’t do this, it’s a sin, don’t do that it’s a sin”…I have always had a positive view of the catholic church and I say that I am catholic. proudly!.. You want to tell me I’m not catholic and have me kicked out?

…The Church’s teaching, and in particular her firmness in defending the universal and permanent validity of the precepts prohibiting intrinsically evil acts, is not infrequently seen as the sign of an intolerable intransigence, particularly with regard to the enormously complex and conflict-filled situations present in the moral life of individuals and of society today; this intransigence is said to be in contrast with the Church’s motherhood. The Church, one hears, is lacking in understanding and compassion. But the Church’s motherhood can never in fact be separated from her teaching mission, which she must always carry out as the faithful Bride of Christ, who is the Truth in person. "As Teacher, she never tires of proclaiming the moral norm…

The Church is in no way the author or the arbiter of this norm. In obedience to the truth which is Christ, whose image is reflected in the nature and dignity of the human person, the Church interprets the moral norm and proposes it to all people of good will, without concealing its demands of radicalness and perfection".149 In fact, genuine understanding and compassion must mean love for the person, for his true good, for his authentic freedom. And this does not result, certainly, from concealing or weakening moral truth, but rather from proposing it in its most profound meaning as an outpouring of God’s eternal Wisdom, which we have received in Christ, and as a service to man, to the growth of his freedom and to the attainment of his happiness.150…
Veritatis splendor

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… Procreative does not mean simply mean conception will or will not take place.

Thanks fix can you expand on this as it is one of the core issues

 

[fix]

setter
I would ask you to consider a different mind sit before you make such comments. I think she was not confused on the current church teachings, and she told you that. She and I see problems and/or contradictions in the church teaching on NFP verses other church teachings, and thus the discussion. We are trying to work that out. If you tell us a thousand times what the church teaches it is just a waste of time because we already knew that. What is desired is a base of understanding why this teaching is correct.

Here is an example "Why do married people need sex with out conception?, Please address the issue of the church teaching no one else needs sex. In fact these people did not need sex until they married, so what about marriage changed them in to sex needers? and if widowed what in them changes back to a person who no longer needs sex? .

Thanks for your help

Perhaps you could clarify your points a little? These threads reveal a few things to me.

1. Folks seem to be unaware that moral actions have an intent, a means and an end. Contraception mostly entails an evil means. That is dismissed quickly by many because they fail to grasp that the magisterium is Jesus speaking on this matter. It seems to go straight to the heart of what we as Catholics understand. Can we trust that Christ founded one Church He speaks through infallibly or do we each invent right and wrong?
2. People often accuse the Church of being legalistic because these acts are things we want to do and accepting the truth means having to change the way we act. Submission and obedience are seen as “blindly” following or “not thinking for oneself”. In fact, refusing to properly form one’s conscience is basically saying my intellect and will are superior to all even though that means morality is relative I choose not to reconcile this with logic.
3. I am not referring to anyone in this thread, I want to offer this link as a means to futher discussion:

…A Catholic, as a human being, has the rights of any other human being. But, *as a Catholic, *he has the rights that derive from the nature of being a Catholic. He does not have rights that go against that nature. He has the right to everything that makes him more a Catholic, but not to what makes him less. To claim rights incompatible with the nature of being a Catholic means to denaturalize oneself as a Catholic; one thereby begins to de-catholicize oneself; to “ex-communicate” oneself in the literal if not in the juridical sense…

The nature or identity of a Catholic, then, is clear. Its essential feature, over and beyond baptism, is full *communion *with the *Catholic Church, *by which we are *joined to Christ *through the *bonds *of the faith, the sacraments, and the discipline of the Church. Each of these ecclesial bonds should be seen in terms of a link with Christ. Each represents a special encounter with Christ, and a special acceptance of Christ coming to meet us. They are not bonds that fetter us and hamper our movements, but bonds that join us to him, and so set us free…

If a person, faced with what he feels is opposition between church authority and his own conscience, “sides” with conscience in one particular issue, he will soon find the same opposition appearing in all sorts of other issues. If birth control can be licitly practiced in certain extraordinary circumstances, why can extraordinary circumstances (and, eventually, even ordinary circumstances) not justify homosexual conduct or extra-marital sex? If a man concludes that Christ does not uphold the Church’s teaching on contraception, then he has no reason to put faith in its teaching about divorce or euthanasia or abortion…[3] Authority and Freedom in the Church

 

[fix]

Thanks fix can you expand on this as it is one of the core issues

I can try.

Please see this:

… Normal sexual behaviour is one such type – it is generative behaviour; it has the built-in significance of being generative/procreative behaviour because of the central role it plays in human life – of being a cause in the generation of human beings. As far as human performance is concerned it remains generative behaviour in being left to be normal sexual intercourse by those who engage in it, whether or not it is fertile. Fertility is not precisely a state of affairs brought about by our behaviour but is a function of conditions which are produced independently of performance, by hormonal changes, for example…

In saying that certain types of behaviour have a built-in significance one does not imply that the significance they have has to constitute one’s conscious purpose in engaging in that behaviour…

It is something similar with the built-in significance of normal sexual intercourse. The Church does not teach that in engaging in intercourse one has to be acting with a view to procreating, an objective one could realistically have in mind only when one was fertile. What she teaches is that sexual intercourse will not make for an authentic unity of two-in-one-flesh if those engaging in it set out to negate its built-in significance as generative/procreative behaviour. And they negate that significance in setting out to render infertile any sexual activity which might otherwise be fertile. They do not negate its significance as generative (its “procreative significance”) by having intercourse when they happen to be infertile, since fertility is not required for the act to be of the generative kind…

linacre.org/contra.html

 

[gogogirl]

The “topic” is directly related, see your post #4 where you directly linked the two.

You must know my mind way better than I do so I am not even go to answer this!!!

I have read all your other OS related posts …If you can’t stand the community interaction of fellow Catholics simply citing Church teaching in matters of sexual morality, then …

Anybody can quote teachings. I have read several books regarding the church’s teachings. Quoting and reading does not automatically lead to understanding. I appreciate those that have bothered to explain and do more than just quote.

The Church (and God) accepts each one of us exactly where we are at, and thank goodness for this! But, the Church (and God) loves us too much to leave us where we are at, and thank goodness for this! I cannot comprehend a competent Catholic priest “accepting” one into full communion with the Church if that person is unable to profess assent to of the Church’s teachings in matters of faith and morals, especially involving grave matters of sin (whether beliefs or behaviors). I thought that this is what it means to become a Catholic. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am certain that you are correct as it is quite evident that there is no point in trying to explain my point of view. I am sorry, but the priest did not sit down and give us a test and make sure that we agree with every little nuance of church teachings. How is it possible to learn every little thing that the church teaches in a roughly nine month period where the class only meets once a week. I had never heard that oral sex was a mortal sin until I posted that thread back in April and I only learned that from these boards. What I learned in RCIA, engaged encounter, and our other marriage prep classes was that marriage is a sacrament and two people come together to help each other get to heaven, have children, etc. We were never given explicit instructions on what we could or couldn’t do in our bedroom. I guess my priest and everybody else over the years need to go back and be retrained because they apparently suck.

You are taking this way too personally.

That may be the case but I feel like I have something to share. You can state the teachings of the church but you cannot tell me how to feel.

As Catholics we do submit to Christ’s Lordship given to us through authoritative Church teaching in a trusting and obedient faith relationship with the person of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I am aware that Catholics blindly accept the teachings of the church. I am unable to do so at this time so I have unplugged myself from the church and no longer consider myself Catholic. I have stopped going to mass and I will not go to confession unless or until I am able to confess with great sorrow. I due not take the rules of the church so lightly that I disregard them and still call myself Catholic.

With this said, I will unplug myself from further posting to you on this thread, since you seem to be taking my feedback way too personally and can only be counterproductive at this point.

How else am I supposed to take it?

 

[Karin]

You must know my mind way better than I do so I am not even go to answer this!!!

Anybody can quote teachings. I have read several books regarding the church’s teachings. Quoting and reading does not automatically lead to understanding. I appreciate those that have bothered to explain and do more than just quote.

I am certain that you are correct as it is quite evident that there is no point in trying to explain my point of view. I am sorry, but the priest did not sit down and give us a test and make sure that we agree with every little nuance of church teachings. How is it possible to learn every little thing that the church teaches in a roughly nine month period where the class only meets once a week. I had never heard that oral sex was a mortal sin until I posted that thread back in April and I only learned that from these boards. What I learned in RCIA, engaged encounter, and our other marriage prep classes was that marriage is a sacrament and two people come together to help each other get to heaven, have children, etc. We were never given explicit instructions on what we could or couldn’t do in our bedroom. I guess my priest and everybody else over the years need to go back and be retrained because they apparently suck.

That may be the case but I feel like I have something to share. You can state the teachings of the church but you cannot tell me how to feel.

Yes, I am aware that Catholics blindly accept the teachings of the church. I am unable to do so at this time so I have unplugged myself from the church and no longer consider myself Catholic. I have stopped going to mass and I will not go to confession unless or until I am able to confess with great sorrow. I due not take the rules of the church so lightly that I disregard them and still call myself Catholic.

How else am I supposed to take it?

sorry to jump in here…but i have to put my 2cents in …first a large majority of Catholics do not just blindly follow the teachings of the church…I dont!
Also it would seem that you have put what you want above what GOD wants…your needs, wants and desires over what God has planned for you…I pray that your heart can once again be opened to see what GOD wants for you.

 

[gogogirl]

That is not accurate. With NFP the act is complete, unaltered, and both aspects of the act are intact no matter whether conception is possible or not. Procreative does not mean simply mean conception will or will not take place.

YES, I understand that perspective. Have you used NFP? I am speaking from experience, which is something that I probably shouldn’t do. During the first 3 years of our marriage, we used NFP. We also used it briefly after the birth of our first child. All I am trying to say is that NFP seems like it is just a way of cheating. You are not completely accepting your fertility and God’s will. Does that make any sense at all? The act may be completely unaltered but you are still deliberately timing it so that the likelyhood of getting pregnant is very minimal.

It is ridiculous to try to explain what I am saying so I give up. I am not Catholic so there is not point in trying to explain my point of view or even attempt to understand this matter.

 

[gogogirl]

sorry to jump in here…but i have to put my 2cents in …first a large majority of Catholics do not just blindly follow the teachings of the church…I dont!
Also it would seem that you have put what you want above what GOD wants…your needs, wants and desires over what God has planned for you…I pray that your heart can once again be opened to see what GOD wants for you.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT. MY MIND IS CLOSED, MY HEART IS CLOSED, AND I AM GOING TO HELL!!! ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON. THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THESE FORUMS AS THERE IS NO LONGER ANY POINT IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND OR SEEK ANYTHING FROM THE CATHOLIC POINT OF VIEW!!!

 

[fix]

YES, I understand that perspective. Have you used NFP?

Yes, I have and I do.

…All I am trying to say is that NFP seems like it is just a way of cheating. You are not completely accepting your fertility and God’s will. Does that make any sense at all? The act may be completely unaltered but you are still deliberately timing it so that the likelyhood of getting pregnant is very minimal.

Again, it seems this issue goes back to definitions. There is nothing immoral about spacing births or not having children at all for just reasons. The sticky part is the means used to achieve that end.

Do you accept the concept that the ends do not justify the means? How we arrive at any particular goal can be done in several ways, but not all ways are moral.

It is ridiculous to try to explain what I am saying so I give up. I am not Catholic so there is not point in trying to explain my point of view or even attempt to understand this matter.

If you were baptized you are Cathlolic forever. I cannot read your heart. I am simply trying to defend Church teaching and explain it as best I can.

 

[Karin]

YOU ARE SO RIGHT. MY MIND IS CLOSED, MY HEART IS CLOSED, AND I AM GOING TO HELL!!! ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON. THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THESE FORUMS AS THERE IS NO LONGER ANY POINT IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND OR SEEK ANYTHING FROM THE CATHOLIC POINT OF VIEW!!!

ALL RIGHTY THEN , Gogogirl.
No need to YELL, I can read lower case letters without a magnifing glass.
I am sorry that you feel this way and I can only hope that one day you come to truly understand what the Church teaches and what God wants for you!

GOGOGIRL:wave: -
may I also suggest that you curb your foul language when sending people PM’s.
using for letter words and calling people the “B” word are not very Christian attitudes and even more simply put they are not “lady like”:tsktsk:

 

[gogogirl]

ALL RIGHTY THEN , Gogogirl.
No need to YELL, I can read lower case letters without a magnifing glass.
I am sorry that you feel this way and I can only hope that one day you come to truly understand what the Church teaches and what God wants for you!

GOGOGIRL-
may I also suggest that you curb your foul language when sending people PM’s.
using for letter words and calling people the “B” word are not very Christian attitudes and even more simply put they are not “lady like”

Hey, go report me. That way I can get permanently removed from the forums. That would be the highlight of my day!!!

 

[Karin]

Hey, go report me. That way I can get permanently removed from the forums. That would be the highlight of my day!!!

 

[Therese_Martin]

Notice:

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.