Question about the Lord's Prayer

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AmISearching

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see, I already knew that the Catholic version ended at “but deliver us from evil.” - but is it debt/debtors or tresspass/tresspass against us in the Catholic Church? Its just one thing that I haven’t come across in my reading about the Catholic Church…
 
AmISearching?:
see, I already knew that the Catholic version ended at “but deliver us from evil.” - but is it debt/debtors or tresspass/tresspass against us in the Catholic Church? Its just one thing that I haven’t come across in my reading about the Catholic Church…
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Trespass.
 
anyone know why protestants have both?

(I guess if I’m converting I’d better go learn to say it with tresspass… and learn the alternate notes for the song as well (I sang The Lord’s Prayer on my senior voice recital in college - but I did notice it had some alternate notes for fitting in tresspasses, even though I’ve never heard it sung that way)
 
AmISearching?:
see, I already knew that the Catholic version ended at “but deliver us from evil.” - but is it debt/debtors or tresspass/tresspass against us in the Catholic Church? Its just one thing that I haven’t come across in my reading about the Catholic Church…
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Trespass or Sin.

In the Catholic churches in Asia The Lord’s Prayer is normally:

Our Father in heaven, holy be your Name, your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Do not bring us to the test but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
 
AmISearching?:
see, I already knew that the Catholic version ended at “but deliver us from evil.” - but is it debt/debtors or tresspass/tresspass against us in the Catholic Church? Its just one thing that I haven’t come across in my reading about the Catholic Church…
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Growing up and being taught the faith in Ireland, it was always “Tresspass”
 
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thistle:
Trespass or Sin.

In the Catholic churches in Asia The Lord’s Prayer is normally:

Our Father in heaven, holy be your Name, your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Do not bring us to the test but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
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Its both here but the preference is to use the one in modern day English (as above). Trespass is used with the old English language words like “art”, “thy” etc.
 
anyway - so the point is definately no “debts as we forgive our debtors” - so I need to work on that along with everything else I need to start memorizing =)
 
AmISearching?:
anyway - so the point is definately no “debts as we forgive our debtors” - so I need to work on that along with everything else I need to start memorizing =)
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Last time I used debts/debtors was when I was a Methodist but since I converted to the Catholic faith 15 years ago I’ve only ever seen the two forms: one with trespasses and the other with sins.
 
Contrary to popular belief, the translation of the Our Father used by English-speaking Catholics is not the one from the Douay-Rheims Bible, but the one from the 1549/1552 Book of Common Prayer, albeit with some slight modernization. Notice that at that time the “Lordes Prayer” did not include the final doxology used by non-Catholics today:

justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1552/MP_1552.htm
 
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buzzcut:
Notice that at that time the “Lordes Prayer” did not include the final doxology used by non-Catholics today:
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Yes I had already read that - one of many surprising things to us Protestants looking into Catholicism that only confirms our desire to convert (well at least for some of us!)
 
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buzzcut:
Contrary to popular belief, the translation of the Our Father used by English-speaking Catholics is not the one from the Douay-Rheims Bible, but the one from the 1549/1552 Book of Common Prayer, albeit with some slight modernization. Notice that at that time the “Lordes Prayer” did not include the final doxology used by non-Catholics today:

justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1552/MP_1552.htm
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I hadn’t realised there were so many translations. In fact at least two of them do use debts/debtors.

The Douay-Rheims Bible:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. And forgive us us debts as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

The Catholic Study Bible (New American Bible):

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.

So AmIsearching you have quite a variety of translations to choose from.
 
When I used to be Methodist we used debt/debtors.

Once I converted we used (at both a St.Gaspars and St. Joseph’s parish in Indiana):

Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Deliver us Lord from every evil . . .
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are Yours now and forever, Amen.
 
i dont like the "lead us not into tempattion i prefer “do not let us be tested” or the like
 
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thistle:
Its both here but the preference is to use the one in modern day English (as above). Trespass is used with the old English language words like “art”, “thy” etc.
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No. It has nothing to do with thee, thou and art.

The Greek in Matthew is “opheilemata” = debts. In Luke, it’s “hamarteia” = sins.

I’m guessin’ AmISearching? came from a Presbyterian background.

BTW, when Catholics sing that song, we sing “debts” and “debtors” and we sing “for thine is the Kingdom . . .”

Ain’t we broad minded?
 
NO duh! I’m so stupid - I even forgot that it would go on, LOL!!! Obviously while I’m learning a lot about the theology - I haven’t actually thought about how it affects normal things like saying (And singing!) the Lord’s Prayer!!! I feel so stupid for realizing the prayer doesn’t “go on” in the Catholic church, yet not realizing that would “mess up” the song!

and while I went to a Presybterian College - I grew up in the Wesleyan Church actually… (Actually I thought Presbyterianism was quite weird when I first went there to school - after all they were CALVINISTS!! LOL!!)
 
AmISearching?:
NO duh! I’m so stupid - I even forgot that it would go on, LOL!!! Obviously while I’m learning a lot about the theology - I haven’t actually thought about how it affects normal things like saying (And singing!) the Lord’s Prayer!!! I feel so stupid for realizing the prayer doesn’t “go on” in the Catholic church, yet not realizing that would “mess up” the song!

and while I went to a Presybterian College - I grew up in the Wesleyan Church actually… (Actually I thought Presbyterianism was quite weird when I first went there to school - after all they were CALVINISTS!! LOL!!)
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:rotfl: I was an Episcopalian for 40 years, and in the Catholic Church since 2000. I still stumble over “Father, Son, and Holy Gho . . . Spirit.” And I just plain dig in and WILL NOT say Eigh-men. It’s Ah-men. Ah-men, ah-men, ah-men! So THERE!
 
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mercygate:
No. It has nothing to do with thee, thou and art.

The Greek in Matthew is “opheilemata” = debts. In Luke, it’s “hamarteia” = sins.

I’m guessin’ AmISearching? came from a Presbyterian background.

BTW, when Catholics sing that song, we sing “debts” and “debtors” and we sing “for thine is the Kingdom . . .”

Ain’t we broad minded?
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I didn’t quite mean that. I meant that the old English language translation (using thee, thy, art etc) of The Lord’s Prayer is the only time I’ve seen/heard “trespasses/trespass” used. I didn’t mean “trespass” is an old English language word not used nowadays.
BTW in Asia when the Lord’s Prayer is sung its mostly sins/sin and do not bring us to the test that is used.
 
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Brain:
i dont like the "lead us not into tempattion i prefer “do not let us be tested” or the like
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I don’t like it either. In my 1st language, Portuguese, I say “do not let us fall into temptation.” It makes much more sense to me, for God does not lead us into temptation, the enemy does.

About a week ago I watched Fr. Corapi say that the English translation is not correct and does injustice to the reference Latin version.

:blessyou:
 
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Augustine:
I don’t like it either. In my 1st language, Portuguese, I say “do not let us fall into temptation.” It makes much more sense to me, for God does not lead us into temptation, the enemy does.

About a week ago I watched Fr. Corapi say that the English translation is not correct and does injustice to the reference Latin version.

:blessyou:
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I did a paper on eschatology where part of it touched on the Lord’s Prayer. From “Convergence of Time” by “me”. Just want to share.
"Jesus, knowing of this coming suffering, said in His prayer (what we call the Lord’s Prayer or the Our Father) included in the ending of the prayer, “and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one” (Matthew: 6:13) (Luke 11:4). Jewish apocalyptic writings speak of a period of severe trial before the end of the age, sometimes called the “messianic woes.” This petition asks that the petitioner be spared that final test. That “final test” is the tribulation period described in the book of Revelation as well as Daniel, and the “evil one” is the devil along with the anti-Christ and the false prophet (1).

How many of us realize that the Lord’s Prayer refers to these end times? Most Christians today use *“…and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil….”, *which does not give a sense of eschatology, but the original language written in Greek is eschatological or dealing with end times. We need to realize this. Especially now since we are in end times."

I suppose this puts another spin on the discussion. Peace
 
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