Question for Baptists: Who is or is not a Baptist?

[markomalley]

As a matter of full disclosure, this started off on the WBC thread. But the question I posed, and was roundly attacked for daring to ask, was actually far more generic than the readers there took it.

First of all, an observation: Baptists are, from what I’ve seen, a really, really diverse group. I, honestly, see little in common between different flavors of Baptist existence (I would have called it “Baptist Denominations,” but I have been roundly upbraided before for making the mistake of saying that Baptists are a denomination).

I have talked to Baptists who are Calvinists. I have talked to Baptists who are Arminians.

I have talked to Baptists who believe that the government should provide all social services. I have talked to Baptists who believe that the government should stay out of everything.

I have talked to Baptists who trace their roots from Catholicism by way of Puritanism. I have talked to Baptists who are Landmark Baptists.

I have talked to Baptists who are premillennialists, I have talked to some who are postmillennialists. I have talked to some who are pretarists.

I have talked to Baptists who are charismatics (although I’ve only talked to a couple like that); I have talked to Baptists who believe that glossolalia is an absolute heresy.

---

I figure if I was to ask what is and is not authentic Baptist teaching, I would get a whole bunch of answers, very few of which are in agreement…(at least if my conversations in the real world with Baptists translates to the Internet)

So let me ask three questions. I appreciate any Baptist giving me a serious answer.

1. What is the minimum set of doctrines that a congregation must subscribe to before they can legitimately call themselves Baptists. Are there any doctrines that exist within Christianity that an authentic Baptist may NOT believe? (for example, could a Baptist reject the idea of the Trinity and still remain a Baptist?)
2. Is there any organization, hierarchy, or individual who has the authority to say whether or not a group is or is not Baptist?
3. Finally, do you see that as being a strength or a weakness within the universe of Baptist thought? If you see it as being a strength, how do you resolve that position with scriptures like

[BIBLEDRB]Phil 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 13:11[/BIBLEDRB]
​

and the like, which call for believers to be of one mind, of one accord, etc.?

For those who choose to participate, thank you for your time.

 

[brb3]

First of all, an observation: Baptists are, from what I’ve seen, a really, really diverse group. I, honestly, see little in common between different flavors of Baptist existence (I would have called it “Baptist Denominations,” but I have been roundly upbraided before for making the mistake of saying that Baptists are a denomination).

So let me ask three questions. I appreciate any Baptist giving me a serious answer.

1. What is the minimum set of doctrines that a congregation must subscribe to before they can legitimately call themselves Baptists. Are there any doctrines that exist within Christianity that an authentic Baptist may NOT believe? (for example, could a Baptist reject the idea of the Trinity and still remain a Baptist?)

Actually ‘Denomination’ is a common term used with Baptists. You have your Northern Baptists, your Southern Baptists, your Free Will Baptists, etc.

All one needs do to join a particular denomination is to walk forward at the church invitation & tell pastor you desire to move your membership from another church … and you are accepted by church proclaimation [someone makes motion to receive, another seconds motion, and verbal vote is taken by yea/nays]. I never recall hearing someone join from a Catholic Church … but, I’m sure they would have no difficulty being accepted by letter.

To become Christian … one needs to walk the aisle at end of service invocation, and tell pastor you wish to receive Christ and be baptized. You then turn, stand at pastor’s side, and at conclusion of invitation the Church membership comes forward to greet the new convert(s). A few weeks later you are baptized by IMMERSION in name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no Confirmation for the Laity … but, there is for the leadership.

 

[HyeDetroit]

I’m not a baptist, this is my view on the questions.

1. There are no set in stone guidelines to say who is and who is not a baptist.
   Since they are called Baptists, I would think they need to be baptised at some point in their life. They have to believe in Jesus Christ as lord and savior. They have to believe that the bible is the guide for moral authority.
2. There are conventions that local churches can choose to be a part of. Souther Baptist Convention, National Baptist Convention, etc.
   But the local church is autonomous in the end.
3. The weakness is how to resolve different interpretations of scripture. It can cause deep divisions if there is no authority to turn to.
   A strength could be since there are different ways to interpret scripture, people can chose a church that holds the same beliefs as they do. It gives them more flexibility & that could appeal to a wider amount of people.

 

[yellowantphil]

Well, I was a Baptist when I was a kid. More specifically, I was part of American Baptist Churches USA. I never really considered what made a “true” Baptist; all I knew was that I was American Baptist and most certainly not Southern Baptist. Baptist churches in general are fiercely independent, it seems, and I never saw much evidence of trying to build any connection with Baptist churches outside of my particular Baptist denomination.

From my experience, I never felt any particular connection to Baptists who weren’t American Baptist, any more than I felt a connection with Lutherans or any other denomination. So it was immaterial what other churches called themselves Baptist.

1. There are conventions that local churches can choose to be a part of. Souther Baptist Convention, National Baptist Convention, etc.
   But the local church is autonomous in the end.

Yes, this is all you get in terms of Baptist hierarchy. There’s nothing to stop anyone from starting their own church and declaring it to be Baptist, regardless of its teachings. At some point, Baptists and other Christians will start to question whether a particular church is Christian at all (e.g., if they reject the Trinity), but it’s hard to say at what point a particular church no longer deserves to be called Baptist.

 

[markomalley]

Well, I was a Baptist when I was a kid. More specifically, I was part of American Baptist Churches USA. I never really considered what made a “true” Baptist; all I knew was that I was American Baptist and most certainly not Southern Baptist. Baptist churches in general are fiercely independent, it seems, and I never saw much evidence of trying to build any connection with Baptist churches outside of my particular Baptist denomination.

From my experience, I never felt any particular connection to Baptists who weren’t American Baptist, any more than I felt a connection with Lutherans or any other denomination. So it was immaterial what other churches called themselves Baptist.

Yes, this is all you get in terms of Baptist hierarchy. There’s nothing to stop anyone from starting their own church and declaring it to be Baptist, regardless of its teachings. At some point, Baptists and other Christians will start to question whether a particular church is Christian at all (e.g., if they reject the Trinity), but it’s hard to say at what point a particular church no longer deserves to be called Baptist.

Recognizing that you were a kid at the time, was there some sort of hierarchy or **within **the “American Baptist Convention?” Requirements for member congregations?

Thanks for your time on this.

 

[yellowantphil]

Recognizing that you were a kid at the time, was there some sort of hierarchy or **within **the “American Baptist Convention?” Requirements for member congregations?

Thanks for your time on this.

I never learned about the structure of the American Baptist Churches. I went to their website to see if I could find something about how it’s set up, and found this statement about the Westboro Baptist Church:

In light of the increased media attention focused upon the Westboro Church of Topeka, KS, American Baptists want to be clear that we denounce their message and tactics of hate. It grieves us that in bearing the Baptist name they destroy the reputation of thousands of Baptists who daily give themselves in selfless acts of love as followers of Jesus.

Westboro is not affiliated with American Baptist Churches.

So it appears that the American Baptist leadership is unwilling to outright deny that the WBC is Baptist. I suppose that’s because the American Baptist Churches doesn’t claim to control who is or is not a Baptist.

As for a hierarchy, I saw references to a General Board and a General Secretary. I couldn’t find many details, but the General Secretary is described as the Chief Executive Officer of the American Baptist Churches.

 

[markomalley]

Thanks for that info. So apparently that denomination’s board can disavow any communion with a congregation. That’s helpful.

But you should keep in mind that the motive for asking, although spurred by the WBC controversy, was more from a general theological basis than asking for that one specific instance.

A little aside: I have an aunt who is a very devout and pious Freewill Baptist. Growing up, one of her major objectives in life was to save the souls of all the non-freewill Baptists in her family (she was the only one, so she had a big task). As a result, I had many theological discussions with her as I was growing up (of course, that was many, many moons ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth). I thought I had a good handle on what Baptists believe.

Fast forward a few years to when I was a junior enlisted in the Air Force. I was working with another young gentleman who was a Southern Baptist. Of course, one of his primary objectives was the salvation of the souls of all the folk he worked with. In our discussions, I remember him asserting certain theological positions that were totally at odds with my dear, pious Freewill Baptist aunt. That perplexed me greatly, as they both identified themselves as “Baptists” (or more generally as “Christians”)(as opposed to the rest of us heathen). I did not understand at the time how one group who called themselves Baptist could be so far at odds with another group that also called themselves Baptist.

Of course, I understand now that the views among Baptists are widely divergent so that there is little or no real significance to the term, as far as understanding an individual’s personal position.

I think that you answered the question, unless a current Baptist would like to chime in: basically that a convention can disavow fellowship with a specific congregation but that disavowal has little or no significance with what any other convention does. And, furthermore, nobody has the authority to say that some set of beliefs is Baptist or is not Baptist.

Now still, how does that line up with all the verses in the NT, such as the ones I’ve cited in the OP, about being of one accord?

 

[MarkBrown]

One of many views from a former SBC minister.

1. minimum doctrines. The SBC has the Baptist Faith and Message. Short document that outlines the shared beliefs of congregations who identify as Southern Baptist. Covers theology, church government etc. Sometimes Baptist churches will identify with the fundamentals, where fundamentalist comes from. While fundamentalist can be legalistic and in some cases very narrow in view, to hold to the fundamentals as described since the 1920’s would be: Trinune God, Virgin Birth, Bodily Resurrection, substitutionary atonement, immient return of Christ, Sola Scriptura, inerrancy of the Bible.

Most non-denomentional churches are “baptistic” in nature, making the baptist identity very fluid from a catholic point of view.

1. Authority. Not much. Local congregations are very independent and the majority of the time the congregation wields great power. They have committees on everything. There are power struggles with founder families, etc. Some Deacon boards are yes men to the ministers, other boards think they are the controlling authority in the congregations. Baptist churches can be very excitable. I have gone through splits in the congregation over color of carpets. Thankfully never as a minister.

After the local congregation, in the SBC, there are associations. Usually an association of Churches in a county or some other geographical area. The Association provides little to no leadership, as it has little to no authority. It can help with VBS, pastor searches etc. It can not come into the local congregation unless invited.

After that the State Convention. Organizes relief efforts, missionary trips, training. Again no real authority. Churches can work with them or not.

The Southern Baptist Convention. The National level. Authority somewhat.

Can a church be removed. Yes, by a vote on usually the associational level. has to be for an overt break of the Faith and message or break with accepted scripture. I know of two SBC churches in Alabama excommunicated due to their acceptance of openly homosexual ministers. These two ministers brought their “lovers” to the church. It took I believe up to seven years as the SBC tried to reform the churches. I remember one being close to Auburn.

3)Baptist thought on evangelism is good. They advertise, flyers, organize events. Yes the Catholic church does also, but in my area is very quiet about it and it is not well known. Follow up after evangelism or conversion is spotty. A mega church I belonged to for 7 years, in that time baptized over 4000 people. Attendance grew from 2100 to 2400 by the time I left. Sadly, many of the people left the church still wet. But are still retained on the rolls. I am on the rolls of 3 Baptist Churches. And I have not been a baptist for years. Have not attended on since I was 17.

Baptist churches would not look at the verse you cite as meaning belonging to one visible church body. They would take those verses to mean agreement on the basics or fundamentals. Catholic in the creeds would be universal not limited to just the “Roman Church”. As to the Orthodox, most Baptist do not have contact with the Orthodox Church and therefore not know what the Orthodox belief. If told, the Baptist I know would equate the Orthodox as an off shoot of the “Roman Church”, still in error and needing the fullness of the truth.

This is a thumbnail view of the SBC. If you are interested, for knowledge sake, if there is a local Lifeway BookStore close by, go to it for some books on Baptist thought. Lifeway is the publishing arm of the SBC. You will get a more thorough understanding of at least the SBC than any blog or forum can give you. Don’t read what other say about the Baptist, even me a former baptist, but what they say about themselves. Go to the source. That is what I did with Catholicism, started wondering what did catholics think and when to the sources, not what others told me they thought the church taught.

Fr.Mark

 

[CWBetts]

I used to be a Fundamental Independent Baptist, and I can tell you there is no unity among all of the various denominations. To be sure, there is little unity within individual denominations. The answer to this question is nearly impossible to come to because of the lack of a central authority. A Baptist is anyone who wishes to claim they are a Baptist, and there is no central rule to measure the authenticity of the claim.

 

[Ahimsa]

As a matter of full disclosure, this started off on the WBC thread. But the question I posed, and was roundly attacked for daring to ask, was actually far more generic than the readers there took it.

First of all, an observation: Baptists are, from what I’ve seen, a really, really diverse group…

That’s like asking “who is a Christian?” and “who has the authority to determine who is a Christian?”.

You need to ask someone who is a member of a particular Baptist denomination.

 

[mark_a]

Most of the Baptists I know believe in not drinking about the same as Catholics who believe in not contracepting.

By the way, do you know why you should always take two Baptists fishing?

Because if you take just one, he’ll drink all your beer.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I used to be a Fundamental Independent Baptist, and I can tell you there is no unity among all of the various denominations. To be sure, there is little unity within individual denominations. The answer to this question is nearly impossible to come to because of the lack of a central authority. A Baptist is anyone who wishes to claim they are a Baptist, and there is no central rule to measure the authenticity of the claim.

There was little unity within my Sunday School class! We all agreed that the Catholics were wrong, though.

 

[mark_a]

This is a thumbnail view of the SBC. If you are interested, for knowledge sake, if there is a local Lifeway BookStore close by, go to it for some books on Baptist thought. Lifeway is the publishing arm of the SBC. You will get a more thorough understanding of at least the SBC than any blog or forum can give you. Don’t read what other say about the Baptist, even me a former baptist, but what they say about themselves. Go to the source. That is what I did with Catholicism, started wondering what did catholics think and when to the sources, not what others told me they thought the church taught.

Fr.Mark

Thanks for this.