Question for followers of some kind of evolution

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UnworthySoul

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I’ve been reading threads here about different views of evolution. Fascinating stuff and I’m not here to debunk anyone’s theories. I do however, have a question for those who put these ideas forth.

Many of you mentioned Original Sin in vague ways. For example, some say Adam and Eve were allegory for when God breathed a soul into the evoloving humans. Then you mention Original Sin having occured and go on from there, but what exactly was the sin they committed?

This is difficult to put into words, but I guess I’m saying if the tale of Adam and Eve is allegorical, then eating from the Tree of Life is also allegorical. Now, you’ve explained Adam and Eve as being allegorical to the soul being breathed into the first man and woman (just one example here), but what is eating of the Tree of Life allegorical to? What sin does their eating of the Tree of Life allude to or what sin is it symbolic of?

Please trust me when I say that I am catholic and in no way trying to disprove anyone’s theory, I’m just wondering about that one thing, which I think by it’s nature has to be a major thing, and how it fits specifically into your theories. We can say all day that Adam and Eve ate of the Tree, thereby committing Original Sin, but if it’s allegory, wjhat is it allegorical for? What is the sin it represents?

God Bless and Pax Vobiscum!
 
UnworthySoul
  • … I guess I’m saying if the tale of Adam and Eve is allegorical*
It is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that all humans are the descendents of Adam and Eve. That historical fact cannot be rendered meaningless by claiming Adam and Eve are “allegorical”.

For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

HUMANI GENERIS (37)

POPE PIUS XII, 12 August 1950
  • What sin does their eating of the Tree of Life allude to or what sin is it symbolic of?*
There were two trees at the center of the garden, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life. Adam and Eve were free to eat of the tree of life. The forbidden fruit came from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were naked adults living in the garden. This is a way of saying that Adam and Eve possessed the gift of holy innocence. In the garden, because of their holy innocence, Adam and Eve did not know how to abuse the good things that they possessed. They were forbidden to acquire the knowledge of evil because that knowledge would destroy their holy innocence. When they sinned and aquired the knowledge of evil, they immediately became afraid of God and ashamed of their nakedness. That is a way of saying that their relationship with God had been shattered by their guilt at being disobedient, and that they now knew how to abuse the holy gift of their sexuality.

Adam and Eve were once immortal beings living in the garden of Eden. They were allowed to eat of the Tree of Life as sinless immortal beings. But what could the Tree of Life give to beings that are already immortal? More life! Adam and Eve were predestined by God to be raised to a greater glory that they possessed as immortal beings in the garden. They were predestined by God to eat of the Tree of Life and become fully “divinized” by God in glory.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

398** In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

The fruit of the Tree of Life is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Rev. 2:7

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.
John 6:51
 
Thanks for your swift reply. As I said, I am not denying the concept of Original Sin in any way nor do I deny the existence of Adam and Eve. I am merely asking how it fit into people’s views regarding their versions of evolution and what specifically the sin was as most said the story of Adam and Eve was allegory. Just trying to gain clarification. Nothing more.
 
UnworthySoul

I think you asked an excellent question, a question that gets lost in the smog of materialist-evolutionary view of the world.
 
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UnworthySoul:
I’ve been reading threads here about different views of evolution. Fascinating stuff and I’m not here to debunk anyone’s theories. I do however, have a question for those who put these ideas forth.

Many of you mentioned Original Sin in vague ways. For example, some say Adam and Eve were allegory for when God breathed a soul into the evoloving humans. Then you mention Original Sin having occured and go on from there, but what exactly was the sin they committed?

This is difficult to put into words, but I guess I’m saying if the tale of Adam and Eve is allegorical, then eating from the Tree of Life is also allegorical.
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Well said. I do not hold to any form of allegory myself, though I do believe in a God-directed evolution, as the Catechism allows for.

My personal view is that homo sapiens evolved from pre-existent species, as directed by God. Up to that point we were still animals. Then I believe God to have chosen that species to breathe His life into. He chose Adam and breathed into him. As the only human, I can conceive of him as lonely.

An aside: I wouldn’t necessarily say that God didn’t make Eve from Adam’s rib. He could have, why not?

The only reason I favour evolution is because the evidence points to it, and I chose not to limit God to any path He might fancy to take. If in the end it was all done in 7 days and God just planted the Carbon-14 as He saw fit, then give glory and praise to God! But, I maintain that God’s use of millions of years to evolve animals and humans alike does not demerit Him, but gives Him greater glory: we barely survive a hundred years here, and we can barely conceive of 8000 years of ancient history, yet God lived before time existed, and we reckon that to be 5 billion years ago

But, why not plant a seed and watch it grow? If you’re a parent, think about how much you appreciate watching your children grow and develop and learn. If you’re not, consider that God has chosen us to spread His message throughout the world: He could have done it in an instant, yet He chose to use us, His imperfect children.

Peace,
Matt
 
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UnworthySoul:
Many of you mentioned Original Sin in vague ways. For example, some say Adam and Eve were allegory for when God breathed a soul into the evoloving humans. Then you mention Original Sin having occured and go on from there, but what exactly was the sin they committed?

This is difficult to put into words, but I guess I’m saying if the tale of Adam and Eve is allegorical, then eating from the Tree of Life is also allegorical. Now, you’ve explained Adam and Eve as being allegorical to the soul being breathed into the first man and woman (just one example here), but what is eating of the Tree of Life allegorical to? What sin does their eating of the Tree of Life allude to or what sin is it symbolic of?
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Actually I just asked for a clarification, if someone can resolve real evolutionary theory with original sin and Adam and Eve as real first parents to all humanity. It is in the first of the poll questions on creation vs. evolution.

Even though there is a greater freedom in Catholicism saying it is okay, within limits, to hold to evolution. I am finding the defined doctrines of Catholicism to clash with evolution in this area of original sin being inherited from Adam and required that we are all his descendents.

Marcia
 
God created the world using evolution, but created mankind separately and uniquely.
 
Matt22

My personal view is that homo sapiens evolved from pre-existent species, as directed by God. Up to that point we were still animals. Then I believe God to have chosen that species to breathe His life into.

Did Adam and Eve ever possess immortal bodies in a universe where death did not exist? If your personal view does not affirm that this is true, then you are saying that that death would have already been in the world before Adam and Eve sinned. That is really a rejection of part of the Catholic doctrine that concerns original sin.

UnworthySoul is raising a valid point that must be addressed by Catholics that want to reconcile evolution with de fide Catholic doctrine.
 
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Matt22:
Well said. I do not hold to any form of allegory myself, though I do believe in a God-directed evolution, as the Catechism allows for…My personal view is that homo sapiens evolved from pre-existent species, as directed by God. Up to that point we were still animals. Then I believe God to have chosen that species to breathe His life into…
…The only reason I favour evolution is because the evidence points to it, and I chose not to limit God to any path He might fancy to take…Matt
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If we evolved from pre-existent species after which God breathed a soul into Adam, you are saying there were lots of human beings, male and female, on the planet at that time that did not have souls, are you not? What happened to all those other human/animals? It does not logically follow that they all died off nor did they mate with any of Adam and Eve’s progeny.

You are also saying that death existed prior to the original sin. This conflicts with the biblical account, does it not?

The evidence does not point to evolution. The fossil record’s Cambrian Explosion and lack of transitional forms have been known for decades to disprove Darwinism. In addition, virtually every fossil of a so-called early hominid has been discredited shortly after making their big splash in the news. The problem is the papers and articles published retracting such claims go generally unnoticed by the masses. The fossils did not support evolution theory during Darwin’s day and 150 years and the collection of millions of fossils have confirmed the fossil record points towards creation not evolution.

The fact that DNA had to precede the onset of the so-called natural selection process coupled with the fact that science has shown DNA cannot be spontaneously generated in nature also disproves Darwinism. Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA and devout atheist, threw out Darwinism long ago and has been unable to replace it with anything but a ridiculous notion he calls “directed panspermia” which says that aliens from another planet must have brought the seeds of life here.

And most recently molecular biology’s concept of “irreducible complexity” disproves Darwinism. For evolution to take place the complex systems at the molecular level of life would have to have been built in small incremental steps through the action of mutation and natural selection. Science has demonstrated this to be impossible. Systems such as the inner workings of the cell, DNA functions, the chemical processes required to produce vision, the immune system response, blood clotting – all have been classified as being “irreducibly complex” and as such disprove Darwinism. By Darwin’s own words - if any such systems were ever found to exist his theory would completely break down. Well it took over one hundred years but finally science has done exactly that.

Hundreds of reputable scientists around the world have written books and papers refuting evolution theory. Recommended reading:

The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel
Darwin’s Black Box by Dr. Michael Behe
Starlight and Time by Dr. Randall Humphries
Evolution: A Theory In Crisis by Dr. Michael Denton
Icons of Evolution by Dr. Jonathan Wells
The Origin of Life: More Questions Than Answers by Dr. Klaus Dose
Life Itself: It’s Origin and Nature by Dr. Francis Crick
Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth by Dr. Robert Shapiro
The Creation Hypothesis by Dr. J.P. Moreland
Mere Creation by Dr. William Dembski
The Illustrated Origins Answer Book by Dr. Paul S. Taylor
The Mystery of Life’s Origin by Dr. Charles B. Thaxton, “EVOLUTION: THE FOSSILS SAY NO!” by Dr. Walter Bradley, Dr. Roger Olsen and Dr. Duane Gish
Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds by Phillip Johnson
 
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Matt22:
Well said. I do not hold to any form of allegory myself, though I do believe in a God-directed evolution, as the Catechism allows for.

My personal view is that homo sapiens evolved from pre-existent species, as directed by God. Up to that point we were still animals. Then I believe God to have chosen that species to breathe His life into. He chose Adam and breathed into him. As the only human, I can conceive of him as lonely.

An aside: I wouldn’t necessarily say that God didn’t make Eve from Adam’s rib. He could have, why not?

The only reason I favour evolution is because the evidence points to it, and I chose not to limit God to any path He might fancy to take. If in the end it was all done in 7 days and God just planted the Carbon-14 as He saw fit, then give glory and praise to God! But, I maintain that God’s use of millions of years to evolve animals and humans alike does not demerit Him, but gives Him greater glory: we barely survive a hundred years here, and we can barely conceive of 8000 years of ancient history, yet God lived before time existed, and we reckon that to be 5 billion years ago

But, why not plant a seed and watch it grow? If you’re a parent, think about how much you appreciate watching your children grow and develop and learn. If you’re not, consider that God has chosen us to spread His message throughout the world: He could have done it in an instant, yet He chose to use us, His imperfect children.

Peace,
Matt
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply, but how do you rconcile your belief with Original Sin? That’s what I’m driving at here. What was the sin?
 
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