Question for the members of the group Society of St. Pius X:

[freshwind]

well, one thing i do not like about the internet, it is very difficult to convey any context in what one writes…it appears in black and white and can be interpreted many ways

my comment “the only thing wrong with the Catholic Church is Catholics” was a running sort of joke with a religion teacher in the 60’s … his point was generally that while the Church had the full teaching of truth, we, being human, keep making a mess of things

as for good and bad parishes, I suppose they will always be with us as we are still an imperfect group all struggling to forge out our path to heaven, some of destined to have a rougher ride than others

with respect to SSPX I can only speak of my single experience, but I am more than willing to check out more if the opportunity arises

I found it to be a very humble chapel, and my wife was in a pant suit as we were travelling and she had to go to work as soon as we arrived back in our city

no one gave her dirty looks or looked sideways…if anyone noticed they did not make it evident, they were there for prayer and Mass…

I suppose maybe that is what I need to try to do as well…worry about my own worship and state and put the trust in the Holy Spirit and our Holy Father to get us where we need to go and be

 

[TrueLight]

This is why women must cover their heads in Chapel, it is Scriptural, but it is also part of their platform that women are below men in the hierarchy of beings. Their women are never allowed to wear pants, either. Even the little girls are outside playing in long skirts.

If wearing skirts and veiling at mass are issues for you, then I’m afraid you have issues with most parishioners who attend the Extraordinary form, because although no one is going to give you dirty looks if you are wearing pants, or if your head is not covered, skirts and veils are sort of the default attire and it has nothing to do with the denigration of women.

I, for one, would never stand for that…

 

[NewsTheMan]

They demonstrate cultish behavior.

I’ve never seen that. Examples?

You may choose to believe these things or not. But, because someone had a positive experience at SSPX, and chose to share it, I felt that impression needed to be balanced by my different, and far less positive experience.

Of course you are allowed to share your experience. However, that’s what it remains, and it must be made clear it was a negative experience which falls outside of normal experience and it’s not what the SSPX is known for nor something they outrightly promote.

So SSPX is selective in which TRADITIONS they choose to adhere to.

Very arguable and I disagree.

But, no one is entitled to judge the Pope. That is solid Catholic Doctrine.

No it’s not.

 

[SaintGobban]

If wearing skirts and veiling at mass are issues for you, then I’m afraid you have issues with most parishioners who attend the Extraordinary form, because although no one is going to give you dirty looks if you are wearing pants, or if your head is not covered, skirts and veils are sort of the default attire and it has nothing to do with the denigration of women.

I, for one, would never stand for that…

Look, I have attended, almost exclusively the EF for the past 10 years. I stated that I attended SSPX for 6 months, every single week. I have no problem with women dressing appropriately for Mass. I believe that modesty and respect for the Lord are essential to that. I understand why women CHOOSE to cover their heads, and I happen to cover my head now, although I didn’t always. I always observed the dress code at SSPX except one single Sunday when my car was in the shop over the week-end, and I hadn’t removed my chapel veil from the glove box, and didn’t realize I didn’t have one until I was half way to Church. In the middle of Mass, a man ran over and provided me with a dusty veil which he instructed me to put on and leave in Church when I exited. My face actually broke out on both sides where the veil touched my face, it was that dirty. They are militant about their dress code, and pretty much everything else concerning women. At least they were with me!
Please don’t misconstrue my point.

Little girls should not have to play outside in long skirts in the summer time. That is not part of American Catholic Culture and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Catholic Religion.

 

[TrueLight]

Please don’t misconstrue my point.

Okay. I don’t want to do that.

So are you praying for regularization or total dismantling?

 

[SaintGobban]

I feel that the post above is intended to “bait” me into a reply which will then allow my posts to be deleted and myself to be banned.

I’ll simply respond: my “agenda” is to share my overall impression of SSPX in order to demonstrate that SSPX has other problems beyond the problems that they have with the Church.

Their problems are not just Doctrinal, Liturgical, Clerical, Canonical, whatever ical you can come up with that justifies their break with the “Conciliar” Church.

This is the impression that I came away with based on my own personal experience, and the literature which they put out, and the things I have read about them online written by others.

They demonstrate cultish behavior. They are extremely closed, guarded, even paranoid in their behavior. I witnessed them treat their women, and not just me, very poorly. They also seem to feel free to do whatever they want to do, almost exactly like the innovators in the Conciliar Church. **I gave as examples, having a Mass in the park, and a priest reciting the Consecration in a most bizarre fashion, as if he were conjuring the devil. **

You may choose to believe these things or not. But, because someone had a positive experience at SSPX, and chose to share it, I felt that impression needed to be balanced by my different, and far less positive experience.

If I have an agenda it is to remind people that strict obedience to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Chruch is also solidly rooted in TRADITION.

So SSPX is selective in which TRADITIONS they choose to adhere to.

My obvious agenda is to dissuade people from SSPX.
I think they are wrong.
I think they are also more than just a Traditional Catholic group, but that aspect is never shared.
I believe people should avoid them.

No hidden agenda here. That is my opinion. You are entitled to your own.

But, no one is entitled to judge the Pope. That is solid Catholic Doctrine.

The TRADITION that they are selective about adhering to is the TRADITION concerning the abolute authority of the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church.

For various quotes by Popes and Saints down through the ages stating and restating the DOCTRINE that NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO JUDGE THE POPE, I refer you to this:

trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_pope_as_christ.shtml

 

[TrueLight]

The TRADITION that they are selective about adhering to is the TRADITION concerning the abolute authority of the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church.

For various quotes by Popes and Saints down through the ages stating and restating the DOCTRINE that NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO JUDGE THE POPE, I refer you to this:

trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_pope_as_christ.shtml

So you’re quoting an Orthodox site which lists Roman Catholics as Heretics?

Surely, there must be a forum rule against that?

 

[NewsTheMan]

For various quotes by Popes and Saints down through the ages stating and restating the DOCTRINE that NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO JUDGE THE POPE, I refer you to this:

trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_pope_as_christ.shtml

First, it’s not a doctrine. So even if a Pope in his personal capacity says “nobody must judge me”… so what? It’s not a doctrine.

Secondly, I looked at a few of those “quotes” and the sources are pathetic. They are either ripped out of context ; meaningless as doctrinal statements of force ’ or totally made up.

You can judge a Pope. Not that we should, or that its encouraged, but we can make judgements legitimately and with all charity. For example, I believe Blessed John Paul the Great made a mistake in prudential judgement at Assisi I.

Peter himself was rebuked by Paul.

 

[TrueLight]

First, it’s not a doctrine. So even if a Pope in his personal capacity says “nobody must judge me”… so what? It’s not a doctrine.

Secondly, I looked at a few of those “quotes” and the sources are pathetic. They are either ripped out of context ; meaningless as doctrinal statements of force ’ or totally made up.

You can judge a Pope. Not that we should, or that its encouraged, but we can make judgements legitimately and with all charity. For example, I believe Blessed John Paul the Great made a mistake in prudential judgement at Assisi I.

Peter himself was rebuked by Paul.

Take a look at the site again. It is anti-Catholic.

 

[SaintGobban]

So you’re quoting an Orthodox site which lists Roman Catholics as Heretics?

Surely, there must be a forum rule against that?

I’m not quoting anything. I am providing a link to a site that provides many quotes of Popes and Saints down through the ages about the absolute authority of the Pope. The Orthodox refuse to be subject to the Popes so they are holding the quotes up to ridicule.

But, my point is to demonstrate to those who hold the Roman Catholic Faith that these remarks exist. They are part of the Deposit of the Faith. They are part of Roman Catholic Doctrine.

The fact that they appear on a site which is hostile to the Pope makes their existence even more credible. This is what the Church has always asserted. THIS IS THE DOCTRINE AND TRADITION OF THE CHURCH. THESE ARE THE DIRECT QUOTES OF THE POPES THEMSELVES REGARDING THEIR UNASSAILABLE OFFICE AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

If you are suspicious that the quote is inaccurate, type it in at Google, and see where ELSE you find it.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not quoting anything. I am providing a link to a site that provides many quotes of Popes and Saints down through the ages about the absolute authority of the Pope. The Orthodox refuse to be subject to the Popes so they are holding the quotes up to ridicule.

But, my point is to demonstrate to those who hold the Roman Catholic Faith that these remarks exist. They are part of the Deposit of the Faith. They are part of Roman Catholic Doctrine.

The fact that they appear on a site which is hostile to the Pope makes their existence even more credible. This is what the Church has always asserted. THIS IS THE DOCTRINE AND TRADITION OF THE CHURCH. THESE ARE THE DIRECT QUOTES OF THE POPES THEMSELVES REGARDING THEIR UNASSAILABLE OFFICE AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

If you are suspicious that the quote is inaccurate, type it in at Google, and see where ELSE you find it.

You are sadly wrong in linking to a site which can serve as a portal for Catholics weak in the faith to suddenly find themselves deep in Orthodox apologetics. A site that considers Roman Catholics to be heretics…

I suggest you be more careful in the future to where you link and link to sites which are not glaringly anti-Catholic to make a point.

 

[SaintGobban]

"Only the Roman Pontiff is rightly called universal; the Pope can be judged by no one; no one can be regarded as a catholic who does not agree with the Roman church; the Roman Church has never erred and never will err till the end of time; the Roman Church was founded by Christ alone; the Pope alone can depose and restore bishops; he alone can make new laws, set up new bishoprics, and divide old ones; he alone can translate bishops to another see; he alone can call general councils and authorize canon law; he alone can revise his own judgements; his sentence cannot be repealed by anyone and he alone can review the judgements of all; he alone can use the imperial insignia; he can depose emperors; he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to impious rulers; the Pope is the only man to whom all princes bend the knee; all princes should kiss his feet; his legates, even those in inferior orders, have precedence over all bishops; an appeal to the papal court inhibits judgement by all inferior courts; a duly ordained pope is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter."

• Pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand), the intimate disciple of Pope Leo IX, Dictatus Papae (decreed in 1074 and reiterated at the 1st Latern Council (one of twenty R.C. ‘Ecumenical Councils’); Latin text in Karl Hofmann, Der Dictatus Papae Gregors VII (Paderborn [Germany]: Ferdinand Schöningh, 1933), p. 11.

"The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is

 

[SaintGobban]

"By passing a preceding judgment on the great See, concerning which it is not permitted any man to pass judgment, you have received anathema from all the Fathers of all the venerable Councils…As the hinge while remaining immovable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because "the highest See is judged by no one."
“The Catholic Church, mother and immaculate virgin, although destined to fill the whole world with her members, has nevertheless but one head, which must be venerated by all. Whoever dishonours that head claims in vain to be one of her members. That head is the Church of Rome, whose power the great Constantine recognizes in his Donation. Now, as Bishop of Rome, the Pope is the Vicar of God charged with the care of the churches.”

• Pope ‘St.’ Leo IX, ibid

 

[SaintGobban]

“It was said to me in the prophet: “I have set you over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy, and to overthrow, to build and to plant”(Jer. 1:10)…Others were called to the role of caring, but only St. Peter was invested with the fullness of power [plenitudo potestatis]. See then what manner of servant this is, appointed over the household; he is indeed the vicar of Jesus Christ, the successor of St. Peter, the Christ of the Lord, the God of Pharaoh…the midpoint between God and man… **who can judge all things and is judged by no one.”“Every cleric must obey the pope, even if he commands what is evil; for no one may judge the pope.” **-Innocent III, Consecration Sermon, c. 1200, see Rome Has Spoken; Granfield, Patrick, The Limits of the Papacy:Authority and Autonomy in the Church, NY:Crossroad, 1987; p. 32.

 

[passer_by]

I’m not quoting anything. I am providing a link to a site that provides many quotes of Popes and Saints down through the ages about the absolute authority of the Pope. The Orthodox refuse to be subject to the Popes so they are holding the quotes up to ridicule.

But, my point is to demonstrate to those who hold the Roman Catholic Faith that these remarks exist. They are part of the Deposit of the Faith. They are part of Roman Catholic Doctrine.

The fact that they appear on a site which is hostile to the Pope makes their existence even more credible. This is what the Church has always asserted. THIS IS THE DOCTRINE AND TRADITION OF THE CHURCH. THESE ARE THE DIRECT QUOTES OF THE POPES THEMSELVES REGARDING THEIR UNASSAILABLE OFFICE AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

If you are suspicious that the quote is inaccurate, type it in at Google, and see where ELSE you find it.

Ok I think we need to calm down a bit.

You obviously had a horrendous experience with one SSPX parish or chapel. First thing is that you can’t generalize it to everyone from that. The Roman Catholic parishes around where I live have very strict rules on women’s dress as well. It’s not because women are second rate but its because usually women are the ones that experiment with fashion than men where I live. So I presume the church wants to give some guidance for women so that they don’t get completely carried away.

The second thing you seem to be stating is that there is something out of place with SSPX rejecting the authority of the Pope. I agree and I think all Roman Catholics here do. Which is why we are all praying that the current talks will be successful.

So I think in the heat of the debate of whether all SSPX are sexist, you might have gotten the wrong impression.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I’ll look at these tomorrow to put them in context. Its also true what TrueLight has been saying. Your sources aren’t giving you credibility. But let me end with this. It is this elevation of the papacy that is dangerous to the faith in many ways. He is not divine. I’ll chat more tomorrow. Have a blessed Sunday!

 

[SaintGobban]

“It is not to be thought that matters proposed in [Papal] Encyclical Letters do not in themselves command assent because (in Encyclicals) the pontiffs do not exercise their supreme power of their magisterium. For these things are taught by the magisterium, to which also the words apply, ‘He who hears you, hears Me’.”

• Pope Leo XIII, “Reunion of Chrisendom”, June 20, 1894; Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII: Benziger Brothers, p. 304); On the Rosary [September 8, 1892].]
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  '‘He who will be disobedient to Christ on earth, who stands in the stead of Christ in heaven, will not share in the fruit of the blood of the Son of God.’ ‘Even if he [the Pope] were an incarnate devil we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom.’”
• Catherine of Siena, Roman Catholic ‘Saint’ and ‘Doctor’ of the Faith [Note: a Doctor of the Faith’s teachings are considered only a step below Papal definitions]; quoted in Catholic Insight, April 2001, St. Catherine of Siena, by Mary Hansen, 3rd Order of the Carmelites, Barne, ON.
  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  “If the Pope errs by commanding vices or forbidding virtues, then the Church must believe that vices are good and virtues bad, unless one wants to sin against conscience”
• Cardinal ‘St.’ Robert Bellarmine (a saint to Roman Catholics, and one of the Counter-Reformation leaders), De Summo Pontifice, bk. 4, ch. 5.
  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  “We ought ever to hold as a fixed principle that what is white that I see I will believe to be black if the superior authorities in Rome define it so”
• Ignatius Loyola (R.C. ‘doctor’ and ‘saint’,
  and founder of ‘Society of Jesus’ (Jesuits) which
  staffs the Vatican), “Spiritual Exercises”, Rule 13).
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  The Pope is “God on earth”“Jesus has placed the pope higher than the prophets, than John the Baptist, and than all the angels”“Jesus has put the Pope on the same level as God Himself!”
• John Bosco [1815-1888], considered a great
  modern saint and doctor by the Papacy,
  Meditazioni, Vol. 1: 2nd ed., pp. 89-90.
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  “Witnesses of Tradition? There is only one; that’s me. I am Tradition.”-

Response of Pope Pius IX to a RC bishop’s assertion that his pronouncements could not be deemed infallible without the consent of the bishops as “witnesses of Tradition”, recorded in the bishop’s diary; (cf. [RC] Fr. August Bernhard Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallibleius IX and the Politics of Persuasion, p.9; Dr. Derek Holmes, The Triumph of the Holy See, p. 157; Butler, The Vatican Council, Vol. II, page 355]

 

[NewsTheMan]

Last response. For the 100th time. SSPX DO NOT REJECT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. Stop saying they do. Its just not true, and it makes no sense. Yeah, they’re thinking about reconciling with someone they believe has no authority :-/ lets be logical. Night all.