Question on assent from possible future convert

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aemt1169

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Hello!

I apologize if this is not the correct forum for this question–I looked at the descriptions of the various forums and wasn’t sure where I should post. Feel free to direct me to another forum. Apologies also if this question has been answered–I didn’t see it anywhere, and I also have done Google searches that have come up empty.

For some years, and for reasons I really cannot articulate, I have felt drawn toward the Catholic faith. I was not raised in a religious household but as an adult I was a member of the Episcopal church for many years. About six years ago, after what I can only call a crisis of faith, I began attending mass at a local Catholic parish. I started RCIA but ended up dropping out because I just didn’t feel ready. I don’t know if I will ever feel ready.

At any rate, after I dropped out of RCIA, I abandoned religion completely. Overall, I have been happy with this decision, but recently, I have felt a desire to attend Eucharistic Adoration, which I plan to do this coming Friday, and I realize that doing so may once again create a strong urge for me to consider converting. I am willing to take that risk in order to settle the issue in my mind once and for all, and either pursue conversion or lay it to rest.

Because I don’t even know if I will get to this point, my question is a hypothetical one I suppose, but I feel the answer might be helpful for me to decide if proceeding even would be worthwhile.

I currently don’t agree with the Church’s stances on homosexuality and contraception, or rather, let me put it this way; I can **submit **to the teachings personally since they don’t affect me (I am not homosexual, and my husband has had a vasectomy, so contraception isn’t an issue for me), but I don’t agree that they are sinful. I would agree that anyone joining the Church should abide by them since it is Church teaching, but I don’t agree that those outside the Church are bound by the same rules, if that makes sense (I wouldn’t have a problem with friends/family members obtaining a civil union if they were homosexual, or friends/relatives using barrier birth control, and even if I did, I wouldn’t feel it was my duty to dissuade them, especially if they are not Catholic and have not agreed to abstain from these practices). I feel that would be between them and God, and is not for me to say.

I realize that my opinions may change if I go forward with the conversion process, but I realize that they may not as well. I am sure there are cradle Catholics who remain in the church in spite of their issues with Church teaching. And of course, many leave.

Knowing that I don’t agree with these teachings, and assuming that my stance doesn’t change over time as I pursue the conversion process, would I be able to convert? As long as I agree to personally **abide **by the rules, do I have to agree with them on an intellectual level in order to proclaim my assent when I am received into the Church? Does this question make sense?

I am not interested in getting into a debate over these particular issues. I merely want to know if I would be able to join the Church if I disagree with some of the teachings but agree to personally practice what the Church requires.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
 
aemt1169 said:
Hello!

I apologize if this is not the correct forum for this question–I looked at the descriptions of the various forums and wasn’t sure where I should post. Feel free to direct me to another forum. Apologies also if this question has been answered–I didn’t see it anywhere, and I also have done Google searches that have come up empty.

For some years, and for reasons I really cannot articulate, I have felt drawn toward the Catholic faith. I was not raised in a religious household but as an adult I was a member of the Episcopal church for many years. About six years ago, after what I can only call a crisis of faith, I began attending mass at a local Catholic parish. I started RCIA but ended up dropping out because I just didn’t feel ready. I don’t know if I will ever feel ready.

At any rate, after I dropped out of RCIA, I abandoned religion completely. Overall, I have been happy with this decision, but recently, I have felt a desire to attend Eucharistic Adoration, which I plan to do this coming Friday, and I realize that doing so may once again create a strong urge for me to consider converting. I am willing to take that risk in order to settle the issue in my mind once and for all, and either pursue conversion or lay it to rest.

Because I don’t even know if I will get to this point, my question is a hypothetical one I suppose, but I feel the answer might be helpful for me to decide if proceeding even would be worthwhile.

I currently don’t agree with the Church’s stances on homosexuality and contraception, or rather, let me put it this way; I can **submit **to the teachings personally since they don’t affect me (I am not homosexual, and my husband has had a vasectomy, so contraception isn’t an issue for me), but I don’t agree that they are sinful. I would agree that anyone joining the Church should abide by them since it is Church teaching, but I don’t agree that those outside the Church are bound by the same rules, if that makes sense (I wouldn’t have a problem with friends/family members obtaining a civil union if they were homosexual, or friends/relatives using barrier birth control, and even if I did, I wouldn’t feel it was my duty to dissuade them, especially if they are not Catholic and have not agreed to abstain from these practices). I feel that would be between them and God, and is not for me to say.

I realize that my opinions may change if I go forward with the conversion process, but I realize that they may not as well. I am sure there are cradle Catholics who remain in the church in spite of their issues with Church teaching. And of course, many leave.

Knowing that I don’t agree with these teachings, and assuming that my stance doesn’t change over time as I pursue the conversion process, would I be able to convert? As long as I agree to personally **abide **by the rules, do I have to agree with them on an intellectual level in order to proclaim my assent when I am received into the Church? Does this question make sense?

I am not interested in getting into a debate over these particular issues. I merely want to know if I would be able to join the Church if I disagree with some of the teachings but agree to personally practice what the Church requires.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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I think you cannot truthfully profess the Catholic faith only partially.

CCC is Catechism of the Catholic Church

Since Catholics are bound to not scandalize others, it is not really possible to express opposition to the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, without sin. We are expected to give* witness* to our faith. These dogmas of faith are matters of faith and morals, not stances but rather revealed truths. CCC 2357 …"homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 … Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2370 “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil"…
The Catechism of the Catholic Church* (CCC 2088) has this on voluntary doubt (willful refusal to assent):
The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
​
Voluntary doubt* about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated, doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.
​
 
aemt1169, yes, we must submit also with our intellect, because God prevents his Church from teaching error – itself an article of faith, and part of the ancient creed: I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. Pray for the grace of faith.
 
Perhaps you need to study more deeply why the Church proclaims these truths.
After all if they are true then it would be profitable for you to know about it, Jesus did say the truth will set you free.

We will be waiting praying for you and your conversion progress.
 
Thanks, everyone for your replies. I think these replies mean I could not join the Church in my current state of mind, but I just want to clarify, so I would like to ask further questions.
Since Catholics are bound to not scandalize others, it is not really possible to express opposition to the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, without sin. We are expected to give witness to our faith.
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Would remaining silent on the matter unless specifically asked my thoughts/opinions not be acceptable? I guess it doesn’t really matter since it appears I wouldn’t be able to join anyway with my current opinions, but assuming my opinions do change and I do join the Church, does being “expected to give witness to our faith” mean I am required to go around telling everyone my views on every sin that exists, even when no one asks? I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that to “give witness” meant, by word or example, to demonstrate my faith through my personal behavior. Would keeping silent unless asked scandalize anyone? I doubt I am going to have people coming up to me telling me about their homosexual bedroom encounters (I never have), and unless I know specifically that someone is having gay sex, I don’t see how I could admonish him/her since, according to the Church, it is the act or intent to do the act that is the actual sin, not the fact of being gay, and what other people do or plan to do in their bedroom is none of my business, and I’d rather not hear about that from anyone, gay or straight. I don’t think it is my place to assume that since two people are a gay couple that necessarily means they are having sex. Most likely they are, but since I don’t know it for a fact (I understand there are celibate gay couples), I don’t see how it would be my place to comment. The same regarding contraception. To me that would be akin to assuming because someone happens to be a teen/young adult male, he is most likely practicing masturbation, and telling some random teen/young adult male without being asked that masturbation is a sin. Surely that is not what is expected of Catholics?
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated, doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.
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The second question is: what is meant by deliberately cultivating doubt? Is my voicing these questions deliberately cultivating doubt? I feel I am just trying to be honest. I’m not going around seeking out books or articles entitled, “Why *x *is not a sin,” or “Why the Catholic Church is wrong about y.” In fact, I would say that seeking the counsel of Catholics on this forum is the exact opposite of “cultivating doubt.” If I don’t face my doubts and seek to understand their source, I don’t see how I can overcome them. From the description given, I would say my doubts fall into the involuntary category, and if so, does that mean my doubts are not a sin and would not prevent me from joining the Church if they were to remain in spite of prayer and study and an honest desire by me to overcome them? If I have “hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity,” but agree to abide by the Church’s teachings in spite of my difficulty or hesitation, does that mean I would be able to join the Church even if I do still disagree? It would, in essence, be saying, “I’m not sure I completely understand this, and part of me still disagrees with it, but I am willing to trust that the Church is correct on this and obey in my words and actions in spite of my doubt.” Would that be agreement/assent or not? Could I say that I assent/agree without it being a lie in that case? I would not join the Church under false pretenses.
Perhaps you need to study more deeply why the Church proclaims these truths.
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I am and will continue doing so.

Thanks again.
 
I will allow this thread to remain in L&S if the discussion does not become a debate over Church teachings. Please stay on topic, which is, “Should a person who does not agree with/does not accept all Church teachings become Catholic?” Thank you all, and carry on.
 
You are wrestling with two of the issues that are most difficult for converts. I came to the RCC from Holy Orthodoxy, having converted from Anglicanism many years before. Orthodoxy handles those issues much differently than the RCC; the teachings (there are no specific dogmas) are essentially the same, yet the specifics are worked out in life of each with counsel from one’s priest and bishop.

So, when it became apparent that Rome was truly my final destination, I too had to address how I would respond to the same things that are giving you issue. I had been told the following by an Orthodox monk:

“When we insist that the Church conform to us, we miss out on what we might become if we conform ourselves to the Church.”

That works for me. Hope it helps you in your journey.

ICXC NIKA!
 
I will allow this thread to remain in L&S if the discussion does not become a debate over Church teachings. Please stay on topic, which is, “Should a person who does not agree with/does not accept all Church teachings become Catholic?” Thank you all, and carry on.
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I apologize. I am not sure what I wrote that was considered debating. I have no interest in doing so, which I thought I indicated in the original post. Since the original question was answered, and my follow up questions are considered inappropriate, feel free to remove this thread. I will not seek clarification here for the stuff I didn’t quite understand in the replies. If asking questions is discouraged in the Catholic faith, it is probably not for me after all.

Thanks to those of you who answered my questions; I appreciate your time.
 
The moderator was merely saying that since it is possible for them to move this to the appropriate fora like you said, that they wouldn’t do that if the conversation didn’t go into other areas. Otherwise the thread would be moved to another fora. The moderator didn’t sound to me as if the discussion would be closed. I might be wrong on this, but it didn’t sound to me as if that’s what was meant.
 
Oh I see. I took it to mean that my questions were off topic and that my intent was to start a debate. Thank you for clarifying. I did ask for my post to be directed to the correct forum in the first place, but oh well. Any idea what the correct one would have been? I didn’t see any for questions from people thinking of converting, or people thinking of thinking of converting 😉 Most likely nothing would come of my attending adoration anyway, other than a pleasant time of reflection, and I guess I can do that anywhere.

At any rate, feel free to remove the thread. Thanks.
 
aemt1169 said:
Thanks, everyone for your replies. I think these replies mean I could not join the Church in my current state of mind, but I just want to clarify, so I would like to ask further questions.

Would remaining silent on the matter unless specifically asked my thoughts/opinions not be acceptable? I guess it doesn’t really matter since it appears I wouldn’t be able to join anyway with my current opinions, but assuming my opinions do change and I do join the Church, does being “expected to give witness to our faith” mean I am required to go around telling everyone my views on every sin that exists, even when no one asks? I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that to “give witness” meant, by word or example, to demonstrate my faith through my personal behavior. Would keeping silent unless asked scandalize anyone? I doubt I am going to have people coming up to me telling me about their homosexual bedroom encounters (I never have), and unless I know specifically that someone is having gay sex, I don’t see how I could admonish him/her since, according to the Church, it is the act or intent to do the act that is the actual sin, not the fact of being gay, and what other people do or plan to do in their bedroom is none of my business, and I’d rather not hear about that from anyone, gay or straight. I don’t think it is my place to assume that since two people are a gay couple that necessarily means they are having sex. Most likely they are, but since I don’t know it for a fact (I understand there are celibate gay couples), I don’t see how it would be my place to comment. The same regarding contraception. To me that would be akin to assuming because someone happens to be a teen/young adult male, he is most likely practicing masturbation, and telling some random teen/young adult male without being asked that masturbation is a sin. Surely that is not what is expected of Catholics?

The second question is: what is meant by deliberately cultivating doubt? Is my voicing these questions deliberately cultivating doubt? I feel I am just trying to be honest. I’m not going around seeking out books or articles entitled, “Why *x *is not a sin,” or “Why the Catholic Church is wrong about y.” In fact, I would say that seeking the counsel of Catholics on this forum is the exact opposite of “cultivating doubt.” If I don’t face my doubts and seek to understand their source, I don’t see how I can overcome them. From the description given, I would say my doubts fall into the involuntary category, and if so, does that mean my doubts are not a sin and would not prevent me from joining the Church if they were to remain in spite of prayer and study and an honest desire by me to overcome them? If I have “hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity,” but agree to abide by the Church’s teachings in spite of my difficulty or hesitation, does that mean I would be able to join the Church even if I do still disagree? It would, in essence, be saying, “I’m not sure I completely understand this, and part of me still disagrees with it, but I am willing to trust that the Church is correct on this and obey in my words and actions in spite of my doubt.” Would that be agreement/assent or not? Could I say that I assent/agree without it being a lie in that case? I would not join the Church under false pretenses.

I am and will continue doing so.

Thanks again.
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These are formidable issues. Doubt is a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction, which is the opposite of trust or confidence. We may involuntarily have doubt, but to willfully resist the teaching of the Church in matters or faith and morals is to cultivate doubt, which can be internal only, or internal and external. But as we think, we act, so these are not in isolation. Witness to our faith is living our faith, which requires taking a stand on moral issues in the public forum, such as when voting, or when someone speaks up in public in favor of what is against the teachings of the Church in matters of faith and morals. A common example in a social situation is when a group of people are joking about something that is grave matter, and we do not at least refrain from joining in, even if remaining silent. Also, sometimes we must remain silent to avoid detraction.

Assent is the mental acceptance of a particular judgment as true, which is internal, but may be expressed verbally or by sign. Church members must give internal and external assent to her teachings. External assent must be given when receiving some sacraments, such as is done when in matrimony.
 
Thanks, everyone. It seems the answer is pretty clear so there is no need for additional replies. I won’t be checking this thread again.
 
aemt1169 said:
Thanks, everyone. It seems the answer is pretty clear so there is no need for additional replies. I won’t be checking this thread again.
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Hello,

Even if you don’t see this, I’d only add that when a person converts, he/she must say: “I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.”

I recall a priest in theology school once saying something to the effect that “I don’t know if I could say that.” Not the most Catholic of schools but it does make a point: you are committing yourself to something significant. If you can’t honestly say this, you shouldn’t pretend to mean it.

Dan
 
aemt1169 said:
I would agree that anyone joining the Church should abide by them since it is Church teaching, but I don’t agree that those outside the Church are bound by the same rules, if that makes sense.
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The teachings of the Church are not simply rules made up by the Church for its members. These teachings are God’s will. If it is wrong for a Catholic to do so, then it is wrong for a non-Catholic to do so. These aren’t simply rules for members of a club, they are divine truths.

The Church doesn’t teach that certain things are sinful for Catholics, but OK for non-Catholics. It is true that invincible ignorance can reduce a person’s culpability, but that doesn’t mean that the action is acceptable.

Yes we can all have doubts on various teachings, but we are then called to accept that the Church knows better than we do, recognise that our view is wrong and strive to conform our opinion to the teaching of the Church. It can be done, it just takes time and prayer, and a mindset that is willing to submit to the Church.

The problem, I think, is that secular values of society today are based around relativism and individualism, where people make themselves their own authorities on morality, and everybody decides what is morally right and morally wrong for them. Then throw in modern versions of ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ and we end up being deterred from criticising how others act and behave.

But, it’s great that you’re thinking of joining the one true Church. The fact that you are called to Adoration of the Eucharist should be enough to show that Christ is calling you to His Church. We all have doubts, but if we humbly submit to the will of Christ through His Church we can overcome those doubts.
 
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