Question on capital punishment

[Cojuanco]

This has been eating at me for quite some time, and I won’t be able to get to a confessor until Saturday, so here goes:

Some of you may know that I had gotten a summer job for a DA’s office in a major metropolitan area (basically I did everything the lawyers did except actually stand in the courtroom and argue the case. I was originally assigned to the anti-corruption division, but due to internal reorganization I was shifted to the organized crime unit. One of the cases I worked on with a prosecutor was a gang-related capital case where the defendant had previously been incarcerated for a similar murder.

Now, I know what the Church teaches on capital punishment, and I know that some, like the Holy Father, are calling for its total abolition. Now honestly, if I were a member of the legislature, at least I would vote to severely curtail the practice. But can a Catholic, in good conscience, serve as a prosecutor in a capital case?

 

[Marty_E]

Now, I know what the Church teaches on capital punishment, and I know that some, like the Holy Father, are calling for its total abolition. Now honestly, if I were a member of the legislature, at least I would vote to severely curtail the practice. But can a Catholic, in good conscience, serve as a prosecutor in a capital case?

Generally yes.

No Catholic is bound in conscience to support the unqualified abolition of the death penalty and it is settled Catholic teaching that the State has the right to levy it.

The competent authority to weigh the facts and possible punishments for a guilty party and make a prudential judgment as to the punishment which accomplishes the end of the penalty, including retributive justice, is the State. No one, not even the Holy Father, may substitute his judgment for that of the competent authority.

The exceptions would be where the State is inherently unable to administer justice because of patently unjust laws or defects in the administration of the law. If, for example, you were a prosecutor in Germany in 1938 prosecuting Jews for being Jewish you’d have an obligation to seek other employment.

Concretely in the United States the moral quandaries for prosecutors more often involve situations where they have concerns about the police work, false evidence, incompetent defense attorneys, and the like which could lead to a false conviction. If the penalty is capital, a serious moral obligation on the part of the prosecutor arises.

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[tee_eff_em]

Now, I know what the Church teaches on capital punishment, and I know that some, like the Holy Father, are calling for its total abolition.

I am not aware that the holy father takes such a position?

Now honestly, if I were a member of the legislature, at least I would vote to severely curtail the practice. But can a Catholic, in good conscience, serve as a prosecutor in a capital case?

Yes.

:twocents:
tee

 

[Cricket2]

I think you can work on a capital punishment case in good conscience. People seem to forget that the Church does allow for capital punishment when no other option will serve to actually protect others. It may be rare, but the option is there. Also, due to a variety of reasons, people land up on death row but may never be executed. In addition, there is always the option of a life sentence. I don’t see any problem with working with such a case.

 

[Petaro]

Generally yes.

No Catholic is bound in conscience to support the unqualified abolition of the death penalty and it is settled Catholic teaching that the State has the right to levy it.

The competent authority to weigh the facts and possible punishments for a guilty party and make a prudential judgment as to the punishment which accomplishes the end of the penalty, including retributive justice, is the State. No one, not even the Holy Father, may substitute his judgment for that of the competent authority.

The exceptions would be where the State is inherently unable to administer justice because of patently unjust laws or defects in the administration of the law. If, for example, you were a prosecutor in Germany in 1938 prosecuting Jews for being Jewish you’d have an obligation to seek other employment.

Concretely in the United States the moral quandaries for prosecutors more often involve situations where they have concerns about the police work, false evidence, incompetent defense attorneys, and the like which could lead to a false conviction. If the penalty is capital, a serious moral obligation on the part of the prosecutor arises.

.

A comprehensive and wise post.

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by Cojuanco
Now, I know what the Church teaches on capital punishment, and I know that some, like the Holy Father, are calling for its total abolition.

**St John Paul II **– “May the death penalty, an unworthy punishment still used in some countries, be abolished throughout the world." (Prayer at the Papal Mass at Regina Coeli Prison in Rome, July 9, 2000).

“A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.” (Homily at the Papal Mass in the Trans World Dome, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999).

**Pope Benedict XVI **– “I greet the distinguished delegations from various countries taking part in the meeting promoted by the Community of Sant’Egidio on the theme: No Justice without Life. I express my hope that your deliberations will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty and to continue the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order.” (Address to members of the Catholic Sant’Egidio Community 30 November, 2011)

"**Pope Francis **has continued his predecessors’ call for abolition of the death penalty. In a message to participants of the Fifth World Congress Against the Death Penalty held in Madrid in June of 2013, Pope Francis reiterated support for abolition of the death penalty.

Opposition to the death penalty is part of the Church’s defense of the dignity of human life, he said, and it is “a courageous reaffirmation of the conviction that humanity can successfully confront criminality” without resorting to the suppression of life. The Holy Father recalled that his predecessors Benedict XVI and John Paul II made similar pleas. He asked that “capital sentences be commuted to a lesser punishment that allows for time and incentives for the reform of the offender.”

 

[Marty_E]

Re: Question on capital punishment.

Opposition to the death penalty is part of the Church’s defense of the dignity of human life, he said, and it is “a courageous reaffirmation of the conviction that humanity can successfully confront criminality” without resorting to the suppression of life.

Just to be clear, imposition of the death penalty when justice demands it is a defense of the dignity of human life as well.

It states that (1) one must be held accountable for offenses against others, particularly other human lives and (2) that some offenses are so evil that the perpetrator gives up his or her right to live in human society.

Per se application of the death penalty when circumstances and justice demand it does not detract one iota from the dignity of human life.

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[LongingSoul]

Re: Question on capital punishment.

Just to be clear, imposition of the death penalty when justice demands it is a defense of the dignity of human life as well.

It states that (1) one must be held accountable for offenses against others, particularly other human lives and (2) that some offenses are so evil that the perpetrator gives up his or her right to live in human society.

Per se application of the death penalty when circumstances and justice demand it does not detract one iota from the dignity of human life.

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I’ll let the Pope know of your concerns.

 

[Marty_E]

I’ll let the Pope know of your concerns.

You speak to him often?

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[LongingSoul]

You speak to him often?

.

I hear he’s on Twitter. I do think the strong references to capital punishment that the Church has made over the last 15 years has to do specifically with the US attitude towards it. No one else has much of a problem with the Church stance or find any conflicting doctrinal issues. Everyone knows that the death penalty isn’t intrinsically evil and most see it as a sentence… not as a permanent institution of law.

 

[Marty_E]

I do think the strong references to capital punishment that the Church has made over the last 15 years has to do specifically with the US attitude towards it.

I don’t. On a per capita per annum basis the United States is the very least of problems of nations that maintain the death penalty for certain crimes.

No one else has much of a problem with the Church stance or find any conflicting doctrinal issues.

The Church itself has stated there no doctrinal issues. There is no question that Catholic teaching permits the death penalty and at times may demand it since retributive justice is a requirement of the State’s administration of justice. No Catholic is bound in conscience to oppose the death penalty per se.

As far as no one else having much of a problem, I assume you’re speaking of English-speaking countries. In most non-English speaking countries it’s a non-issue because they wouldn’t even entertain abolishing capital punishment.

Among English-speaking countries we run into the problem that a large part of the Commonwealth, including our Canadian neighbors, are post-Christian socialists who wring their hands and shed crocodile tears over the death penalty while at the same time permitting liberal abortion.

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[Ender]

Among English-speaking countries we run into the problem that a large part of the Commonwealth, including our Canadian neighbors, are post-Christian socialists who wring their hands and shed crocodile tears over the death penalty while at the same time permitting liberal abortion.

The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches. When death came to be understood as the ultimate evil rather than as a stage on the way to eternal life, utilitarian philosophers such as Jeremy Bentham found it easy to dismiss capital punishment as “useless annihilation.” (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)
It is not at all clear that the current trend against capital punishment is a positive one.

Ender

 

[LongingSoul]

Among English-speaking countries we run into the problem that a large part of the Commonwealth, including our Canadian neighbors, are post-Christian socialists who wring their hands and shed crocodile tears over the death penalty while at the same time permitting liberal abortion.

.

If this is the case, why has the Church so forcefully endorsed the countries who’ve abolished the death penalty?

 

[Cojuanco]

The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches. When death came to be understood as the ultimate evil rather than as a stage on the way to eternal life, utilitarian philosophers such as Jeremy Bentham found it easy to dismiss capital punishment as “useless annihilation.” (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)
It is not at all clear that the current trend against capital punishment is a positive one.

Ender

On the other hand, Dulles does state he shares the narrow belief that it ought to be abolished or severely curtailed in the American context, but for reasons other than the Betnthamite grounds many liberals use, while saying the Church does not on principle oppose capital punishment.

My question though isn’t about whether capital punishment should be abolished or severely curtailed - when it has come up as a ballot measure I supported its abolition - but, given that the State still has capital punishment, whether a Catholic may prosecute such a case (I will not that most prosecutors in my experience may make recommendations on whether to seek capital punishment, but their superiors make the ultimate decision on whether to seek it.)

This would not be a question if I or my (former) immediate superiors were responsible for formulating the penal law, in which case the path is clear. But this is a question of a civil servant not responisble for deciding the penal laws. So therein lies the crisis.

 

[Marty_E]

If this is the case, why has the Church so forcefully endorsed the countries who’ve abolished the death penalty?

To the best of my knowledge the Church hasn’t “endorsed” ANY countries.

When it comes to prudential judgments the Church has no particular charisms, as the history of bad decisions and imprudent actions clearly demonstrates.

.

 

[Marty_E]

This would not be a question if I or my (former) immediate superiors were responsible for formulating the penal law, in which case the path is clear. But this is a question of a civil servant not responisble for deciding the penal laws. So therein lies the crisis.

Unless you’re in a jurisdiction which provides the death penalty for jaywalking, or prohibits the confrontation of witnesses, or in some other manner engages in patently unjust lawmaking or administration of the law, there is no moral crisis.

Is there some other crisis?

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[LongingSoul]

To the best of my knowledge the Church hasn’t “endorsed” ANY countries.

When it comes to prudential judgments the Church has no particular charisms, as the history of bad decisions and imprudent actions clearly demonstrates.

.

Endorsements such as this…

**“It cannot be overemphasized that the right to life must be recognized in all its fullness. Governments must enact laws and public policies that take into account the high value that a human being has at every moment of existence. In this context, I joyfully welcome the initiative by which Mexico abolished the death penalty in 2005, and the recent measures adopted by some Mexican states to protect human life from its beginnings.”**Pope Benedict XVI, July 10, 2009

This type of forcefulness isn’t leaving much room for dismissal.

 

[Marty_E]

Endorsements such as this…

**“It cannot be overemphasized that the right to life must be recognized in all its fullness. Governments must enact laws and public policies that take into account the high value that a human being has at every moment of existence. In this context, I joyfully welcome the initiative by which Mexico abolished the death penalty in 2005, and the recent measures adopted by some Mexican states to protect human life from its beginnings.”**Pope Benedict XVI, July 10, 2009

This type of forcefulness isn’t leaving much room for dismissal.

1 - That is not an “endorsement of a nation”. It expresses personal joy over two apparently legislative actions. I am reasonably familiar with Mexico and can assure you it is hardly a nation to endorse in many ways.

2 - No matter how you wend it, wheedle it, bend it, or attempt to obfuscate it, the fact remains that the State’s authority to assess the death penalty is de fide and unchangeable.

3 - It is also de fide that the State is absolutely obliged to make its primary objective in the formation of laws and the administration of justice retributive justice.

Therefore, there will always be some reason or reasons why the State may need to assess the death penalty, be they rare, and a system of justice which does not provide for that is patently unjust.

.

 

[LongingSoul]

1 - That is not an “endorsement of a nation”. It expresses personal joy over two apparently legislative actions. I am reasonably familiar with Mexico and can assure you it is hardly a nation to endorse in many ways.

How about its abolition from Vatican law. You’d think the Vatican should know better shouldn’t you?

2 - No matter how you wend it, wheedle it, bend it, or attempt to obfuscate it, the fact remains that the State’s authority to assess the death penalty is de fide and unchangeable.

The States right and duty to punish criminals is a theological truth. The State has the right to abolish the death penalty also according to the requirements of justice. That is also a theological truth.

3 - It is also de fide that the State is absolutely obliged to make its primary objective in the formation of laws and the administration of justice retributive justice.

Therefore, there will always be some reason or reasons why the State may need to assess the death penalty, be they rare, and a system of justice which does not provide for that is patently unjust.

.

Well unless you are calling the Popes evil? or stupid?.. it obviously is theologically valid to abolish the death penalty altogether from the system.

Aquinas explains the situation of a community withholding death as punishment due to specific circumstances of the community…

“Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat, i.e. the good. This occurs when the wicked cannot be slain without the good being killed with them, either because the wicked lie hidden among the good, or because they have many followers, so that they cannot be killed without danger to the good, as Augustine says (Contra Parmen. iii, 2). Wherefore our Lord teaches that we should rather allow the wicked to live, and that vengeance is to be delayed until the last judgment, rather than that the good be put to death together with the wicked. When, however, the good incur no danger, but rather are protected and saved by the slaying of the wicked, then the latter may be lawfully put to death.” - Summa Theologica

This is obviously not an instruction regarding individual cases but a reflection of a whole group not having the option to use such a penalty.

 

[tee_eff_em]

**St John Paul II **– “May the death penalty, an unworthy punishment still used in some countries, be abolished throughout the world." (Prayer at the Papal Mass at Regina Coeli Prison in Rome, July 9, 2000).

“A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.” (Homily at the Papal Mass in the Trans World Dome, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999).

**Pope Benedict XVI **– “I greet the distinguished delegations from various countries taking part in the meeting promoted by the Community of Sant’Egidio on the theme: No Justice without Life. I express my hope that your deliberations will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty and to continue the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order.” (Address to members of the Catholic Sant’Egidio Community 30 November, 2011)

"**Pope Francis **has continued his predecessors’ call for abolition of the death penalty. In a message to participants of the Fifth World Congress Against the Death Penalty held in Madrid in June of 2013, Pope Francis reiterated support for abolition of the death penalty.

Opposition to the death penalty is part of the Church’s defense of the dignity of human life, he said, and it is “a courageous reaffirmation of the conviction that humanity can successfully confront criminality” without resorting to the suppression of life. The Holy Father recalled that his predecessors Benedict XVI and John Paul II made similar pleas. He asked that “capital sentences be commuted to a lesser punishment that allows for time and incentives for the reform of the offender.”

Thanks. I had misunderstood [user]Cojuanco[/user] to mean the holy father was calling for its abolition from Church teaching, rather than calling for the abolition of the practice, while continuing to allow for its possibility in the teaching of the Church.

:tiphat:
tee