Question on indulgences for the deceased

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fred_conty

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In the Catholic Encyclopedia on this website,
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Indulgences
it says:

QUOTE
…some indulgences are granted in behalf of the LIVING only, while others may be applied
in behalf of the souls DEPARTED. It should be noted, however, that the application has not the same significance in both cases. The Church in granting an indulgence to the living exercises her jurisdiction; over the dead she has no jurisdiction and therefore makes the indulgence available for them by way of suffrage (per modum suffragii), i.e. she PETITIONS God to accept these works of satisfaction and in consideration thereof to mitigate or shorten the sufferings of the souls in Purgatory …
UNQUOTE

So this is saying that the church can actually apply the effect of the indulgence to a living
person, but the church does not have the right over the dead to do the same because they
are not in the church here on earth. So the church cannot actually apply the effect of the
indulgence to the dead, but only ask that it to be applied.

Here is a plenary indulgence that may be applied only to the dead only on All Souls Day,
Oct., 31, if a church is visited and the Our Father and the Creed is said:
ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/plenary.htm

So this is for the dead only, but there is no absolute promise that it will take effect for the
soul prayed for. Simply because the church has no absolute power of those in the next world but only in this world.

Is this true or am I missing something? This is news to me.
 
Let’s say that my grandmother died and on All Souls Day I obtained an indulgence which I asked God to apply to her. Now my grandmother could either be in heaven, purgatory or, God forbid, hell. If she is in hell the indulgence won’t benefit her, if she is in heaven she doesn’t need the indulgence, if she is in purgatory the indulgence will be applied to her.

The Church doesn’t know the in which of the above three places holds my grandmother and so the Church petitions God to apply the indulgence. If my grandmother doesn’t need the indulgence or can’t use i,t the indulgence will be placed as God deems fit.

Hope that that clears things up for you.
 
Dear Fred,
The Manual of Indulgences may offer some help. In the past, all partial indulgences that we obtained, whether for ourselves or for the deceased, had a specific number of days attached to them. Remember that?

Days are in earth time, but with God, time is not finite, measured. So the Church has removed the number of days on all partial indulgences, trusting their benefit to the mercy of God.

What the Manual explains with regard to plenary indulgences is that we are able to obtain a full plenary (pardon of all temporal punishment) for ourselves only. We cannot obtain the full pardon (plenary) for decedents. This is known only to God how He will apply this to them. I very often perform the grant to obtain a plenary for the departed, trusting it to God’s mercy how He will use it.
 
I might be wrong but I think the OP is asking if an indulgence for the dead will be applied to the actual person the indulgence was prayed for (assuming not in Hell) or if it is applied as God chooses to anyone in Purgatory.
 
Sirach2 said:
Dear Fred,
The Manual of Indulgences may offer some help. In the past, all partial indulgences that we obtained, whether for ourselves or for the deceased, had a specific number of days attached to them. Remember that?
Click to expand...
A scholarly priest explained it to me this way: The days/quatranes/years attached to the indulgences did not relate to time in Purgatory, but to the time spent in penance on earth. For example, if a specific prayer was indulgenced for 1 year the value of saying that prayer was the equivalent of doing serious penance for one year. In the times of the Early Fathers, the people did really serious and heavy penances for sin. On of the purposes of the indulgences was to give them some ease.
 
Sirach2 said:
Dear Fred,
The Manual of Indulgences may offer some help. In the past, all partial indulgences that we obtained, whether for ourselves or for the deceased, had a specific number of days attached to them. Remember that?

Days are in earth time, but with God, time is not finite, measured. So the Church has removed the number of days on all partial indulgences, trusting their benefit to the mercy of God.

What the Manual explains with regard to plenary indulgences is that we are able to obtain a full plenary (pardon of all temporal punishment) for ourselves only. We cannot obtain the full pardon (plenary) for decedents. This is known only to God how He will apply this to them. I very often perform the grant to obtain a plenary for the departed, trusting it to God’s mercy how He will use it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the response. A couple of questions.
  1. On partial indulgences, the days referred to the number of days performed under the old penance was equal to so much suffering. Then the worth of this suffering is subtracted from the total amount of suffering owed in purgatory of that person. So if the person in
    purgatory owed x(10) suffering, and someone fulfilled a partial indulgence for them, then
    lets say that amount equalled x(2), then they would have x(8) amount of suffering left.
Now you are saying that x(2) amount of suffering has been dropped and we just let it up to the mercy of God for the amount that x(2) equals. Is this correct?
  1. On plenary indulgence, applied to the one praying is the same, a full pardon is given.
    On plenary indulgence, applied to someone in purgatory, it is questionable whether they
    do receive a full pardon. It is now up to the mercy of God and there is no certainty that
    the deceased is granted full pardon. Is this true? To me that is what it looks like.
However why would the church say that on all souls day, a plenary indulgence may be obtained but applied only to the poor souls? Because the way it actually is, there is no certainty that the deceased is granted a plenary, full pardon, because it is left up to the mercy of God which may not be a full pardon.

When I was a kid they explained to us in school, that a plenary would be applied to that person in purgatory. I don’t believe they issued any caveats.

Just a couple of questions.
 
thistle said:
I might be wrong but I think the OP is asking if an indulgence for the dead will be applied to the actual person the indulgence was prayed for (assuming not in Hell) or if it is applied as God chooses to anyone in Purgatory.
Click to expand...
Not really, but thanks for the response.
 
Marsha_Adams said:
A scholarly priest explained it to me this way: The days/quatranes/years attached to the indulgences did not relate to time in Purgatory, but to the time spent in penance on earth. For example, if a specific prayer was indulgenced for 1 year the value of saying that prayer was the equivalent of doing serious penance for one year. In the times of the Early Fathers, the people did really serious and heavy penances for sin. On of the purposes of the indulgences was to give them some ease.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is what I thought it was, but I’m unsure now if that hasn’t been changed.
 
Sirach2 said:
Dear Fred,
The Manual of Indulgences may offer some help. In the past, all partial indulgences that we obtained, whether for ourselves or for the deceased, had a specific number of days attached to them. Remember that?

Days are in earth time, but with God, time is not finite, measured. So the Church has removed the number of days on all partial indulgences, trusting their benefit to the mercy of God.

What the Manual explains with regard to plenary indulgences is that we are able to obtain a full plenary (pardon of all temporal punishment) for ourselves only. We cannot obtain the full pardon (plenary) for decedents. This is known only to God how He will apply this to them. I very often perform the grant to obtain a plenary for the departed, trusting it to God’s mercy how He will use it.
Click to expand...
So we no longer use days on either partial or plenary. Plenary means all days. And so
No indulgences go by days any more, and therefore one indulgence is as good as another.

It sounds to me like it is simple prayer only for that also is up to the mercy of God as to
the effectiveness of the prayer.

Just a thought. What do you think?
 
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