Question On Marriage

[Bookcat]

“That is interesting so the church requires some form of sexual cooperation?”

“But the premise is still that they will NEVER perform the act even though they can.”

" I guess looking at your first and last posts that sexual cooperation is required so it would be considered an essential property? Then one must determine what sexual cooperation is"

These make me wonder even if no disability existed, but both parties KNEW with certainty that they would never consummate the Sacrament, that regardless of capabilty the actual act must be performed.

As I noted before one may enter into marriage and exchange the right to the marital act…but never engage in it. This is still a valid marriage. No the act does not have to be preformed. Ordinarily this will be the case but it if both agree and continue to agree they may live as married but not consummate the marriage…this is not what the CIC means…

 

[Bookcat]

Can. 1096 §1. For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation.

does not mean they have to have marital relations …

 

[Bookcat]

Here…Jimmy Akin chief apologist of Catholic Answers explains it:

he explains other things as well…but this is included

jimmyakin.org/2005/07/marys_marriage.html

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Here…Jimmy Akin chief apologist of Catholic Answers explains it:

he explains other things as well…but this is included

jimmyakin.org/2005/07/marys_marriage.html

This answers most of my questions, but Jimmy wrote:

“On the other hand, it may be the case that they planned on having conjugal relations but the intervention of the Holy Spirit in conceiving Jesus before they came together caused them to change their plans.”

and this would be in contradiction to the Church teaching of the CCC below,

***1625 **
The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; “to be free” means:

*not being under constraint;
*not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law.

1628
The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.130 No human power can substitute for this consent.131 If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid.*

In the end Jimmy’s answer gets to most of the question, but the CCC still points, or at least hints as did Christ himself that eunuchs, or those not able to consummate cannot marry.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Why would you assume that someone who “made himself a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom” would enter into marriage? Is being celibate within marriage somehow more likely than celibacy for a single person?

I am sorry I should have started the quote even earlier, it is not I but Christ that is speaking on the subject of marriage. In MATT 19: 10…

"The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.”

Then the rest is the 11 and 12 were Christ is I believe stating that not all men enter into marriage. Some are born eunuchs, some are made eunuchs by men and some are made eunuchs by themselves to enter the kingdom of god.

The question becomes one whereby I am wondering if when Christ said these he was saying that eunuchs cannot enter into marriage. The I wonder well why not? The only answer I have is that they cannot because the will not consummate.

I am not positive but the church teaches we are not allowed to Physically castrate or mutilate ourselves, so I think that Christ was speaking figuratively about a eunuch that makes himself one for the Kingdom. That being said then that person could at a later time change their mind, and yet Christ did not say that? I also do not believe that Christ was saying that it is ok to castrate yourself for the kingdom, otherwise that would be a blessing and then someone could castrate themselves after marriage and how could it not be a blessing? It would not fit to interpret it both ways depending on how you wanted the answer to come out, or at least I don’t think that is particularly honest to do so?

Can I then assume so long as he does not change his mind he cannot validly marry? If after he changes his mind he could, but as far as this passage goes I don’t see where Christ allows for a Kind of eunuch marriage?

I thought Jimmy Akin had it, but this leads to another question? Did Christ mean this or something else?

 

[Bookcat]

This answers most of my questions, but Jimmy wrote:

“On the other hand, it may be the case that they planned on having conjugal relations but the intervention of the Holy Spirit in conceiving Jesus before they came together caused them to change their plans.”

and this would be in contradiction to the Church teaching of the CCC below,

***1625 ***
The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; “to be free” means:

*not being under constraint;
*not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law.

1628
The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.130 No human power can substitute for this consent.131 If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid.

In the end Jimmy’s answer gets to most of the question, but the CCC still points, or at least hints as did Christ himself that eunuchs, or those not able to consummate cannot marry.

Jimmy is talking about Mary and Joseph

and what you quote from the CCC has nothing to do with anything your questions.

as to eunuchs…yes they are may be incabable of the marital act so in their case no marriage is possible.

 

[Bookcat]

I am sorry I should have started the quote even earlier, it is not I but Christ that is speaking on the subject of marriage. In MATT 19: 10…

"The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.”

Then the rest is the 11 and 12 were Christ is I believe stating that not all men enter into marriage. Some are born eunuchs, some are made eunuchs by men and some are made eunuchs by themselves to enter the kingdom of god.

The question becomes one whereby I am wondering if when Christ said these he was saying that eunuchs cannot enter into marriage. The I wonder well why not? The only answer I have is that they cannot because the will not consummate.

Those who ‘cannot consumate’ …yes those can not marry…

 

[Bookcat]

1. Yes we are not to be castrating …
2. you are reading too much into this verse…

3.Jesus is not talking about such.

you are again reading too much into this verse…Jesus is talking about those who are celebate etc …without they are not married at all…

The Church interprets regarding marriage…
and so yes one could enter a marriage and intent not to consummate…and for example life a contemplative life of sorts…so long as one exchanged the right…

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

OK FOR ALL THOSE THAT ANSWERED ON THIS THREAD, HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION…

(NOW FOR THE TWISTER PLEASE CHANGE THE QUESTIONS TO SEE HOW YOUR PREVIOUS ANSWERS FIT )

Can somebody answer this question please? #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 **JOSEPH **has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 JOSEPH and MARY decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consummate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certainty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 JOSEPH has decided to adopt MARY’s son **JESUS **and he and MARY will not have any more children.

#5 **MARY **and **JOSEPH **will raise JOSEPH’s adopted **child, MARY’s son JESUS **together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

IT WAS AN EXCERSISE QUESTION FOR FUN AND UNDERSTANDING
***I wondering about this and I had not been able to clear them up in the CCC without just saying because. Jimmy Akin :bowdown:, Bookcat, davidv and others all had some pretty good insights pointing me in the right directions, and or possed good follow on questions.

In the end each posting allowed me to do a lot of reading, cripple a lot of bad reasoning on my part :banghead: and strenghend my wonder of Joseph and Mary’s relationship and sacrafice. :heaven: I have asked my Priest and honestly davidv got pretty close to his answer. :clapping: Part of which was it is one of those aspects of faith that we just have to believe.

So did your answer conclude with Mary and Joseph not being legally married? :blackeye: I thought it was a good exercise and thanks again to all for helping me grow :hammering: , as well as having a little fun. :grouphug: ***

*“Marriage is an act of will that signifies and involves a mutual gift, which unites the spouses and binds them to their eventual souls, with whom they make up a sole family - a domestic church.”
**Pope John Paul II ***

 

[tee_eff_em]

Jimmy wrote:

“On the other hand, it may be the case that they planned on having conjugal relations but the intervention of the Holy Spirit in conceiving Jesus before they came together caused them to change their plans.”

and this would be in contradiction to the Church teaching of the CCC below,

Can you elaborate? I see no contradiction? What contradiction do you see?

***1625 ***
The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; “to be free” means:

*not being under constraint;
*not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law.

1628
The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.130 No human power can substitute for this consent.131 If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid.

In the end Jimmy’s answer gets to most of the question, but the CCC still points, or at least hints as did Christ himself that eunuchs, or those not able to consummate cannot marry.

tee

 

[NHInsider]

OK FOR ALL THOSE THAT ANSWERED ON THIS THREAD, HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION…

(NOW FOR THE TWISTER PLEASE CHANGE THE QUESTIONS TO SEE HOW YOUR PREVIOUS ANSWERS FIT )
Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

IT WAS AN EXCERSISE QUESTION FOR FUN AND UNDERSTANDING
***So did your answer conclude with Mary and Joseph not being legally married? :blackeye: I thought it was a good exercise and thanks again to all for helping me grow :hammering: , as well as having a little fun. :grouphug: ***

*“Marriage is an act of will that signifies and involves a mutual gift, which unites the spouses and binds them to their eventual souls, with whom they make up a sole family - a domestic church.”
**Pope John Paul II ***

I suspected that this was where you were going with this.

The answer is no. Mary and Joseph could not be sacramentally married in the Catholic Church. The Church and the sacraments had not been established. Mary and Joseph were subject to the Old Covenant Law, and under the Old Covenant they were legally betrothed before the annunciation, and married after it. The answer is “not applicable.”

 

[Bookcat]

OK FOR ALL THOSE THAT ANSWERED ON THIS THREAD, HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION…

(NOW FOR THE TWISTER PLEASE CHANGE THE QUESTIONS TO SEE HOW YOUR PREVIOUS ANSWERS FIT )

Can somebody answer this question please? #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 **JOSEPH **has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 JOSEPH and MARY decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consummate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certainty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 JOSEPH has decided to adopt MARY’s son **JESUS **and he and MARY will not have any more children.

#5 **MARY **and **JOSEPH **will raise JOSEPH’s adopted **child, MARY’s son JESUS **together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

IT WAS AN EXCERSISE QUESTION FOR FUN AND UNDERSTANDING
***I wondering about this and I had not been able to clear them up in the CCC without just saying because. Jimmy Akin :bowdown:, Bookcat, davidv and others all had some pretty good insights pointing me in the right directions, and or possed good follow on questions.

In the end each posting allowed me to do a lot of reading, cripple a lot of bad reasoning on my part :banghead: and strenghend my wonder of Joseph and Mary’s relationship and sacrafice. :heaven: I have asked my Priest and honestly davidv got pretty close to his answer. :clapping: Part of which was it is one of those aspects of faith that we just have to believe.

So did your answer conclude with Mary and Joseph not being legally married? :blackeye: I thought it was a good exercise and thanks again to all for helping me grow :hammering: , as well as having a little fun. :grouphug: ***

*“Marriage is an act of will that signifies and involves a mutual gift, which unites the spouses and binds them to their eventual souls, with whom they make up a sole family - a domestic church.”
**Pope John Paul II ***

Mary and Joseph were married…it was not a sacrament…but a marriage…nor would they be bound by the 1983 code of canon law

oh…by the way we do not know for sure if Joseph had any Children by a former marriage…(with death of spouse)…that is one possibility.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

oh…by the way we do not know for sure if Joseph had any Children by a former marriage…(with death of spouse)…that is one possibility.

Supposition… , as it made for a better lead in and helped to muddy the real question, which would have been too obvious without it.

God Bless…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

OK FOR ALL THOSE THAT ANSWERED ON THIS THREAD, HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION…

(NOW FOR THE TWISTER PLEASE CHANGE THE QUESTIONS TO SEE HOW YOUR PREVIOUS ANSWERS FIT )

Can somebody answer this question please? #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 **JOSEPH **has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 JOSEPH and MARY decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consummate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certainty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 JOSEPH has decided to adopt MARY’s son **JESUS **and he and MARY will not have any more children.

#5 **MARY **and **JOSEPH **will raise JOSEPH’s adopted **child, MARY’s son JESUS **together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

IT WAS AN EXCERSISE QUESTION FOR FUN AND UNDERSTANDING
***I wondering about this and I had not been able to clear them up in the CCC without just saying because. Jimmy Akin :bowdown:, Bookcat, davidv and others all had some pretty good insights pointing me in the right directions, and or possed good follow on questions. ***

In the end each posting allowed me to do a lot of reading, cripple a lot of bad reasoning on my part :banghead: and strenghend my wonder of Joseph and Mary’s relationship and sacrafice. :heaven: I have asked my Priest and honestly davidv got pretty close to his answer. :clapping: Part of which was it is one of those aspects of faith that we just have to believe.

***So did your answer conclude with Mary and Joseph not being legally married? :blackeye: I thought it was a good exercise and thanks again to all for helping me grow :hammering: , as well as having a little fun. :grouphug: ***

*“Marriage is an act of will that signifies and involves a mutual gift, which unites the spouses and binds them to their eventual souls, with whom they make up a sole family - a domestic church.” *
***Pope John Paul II ***

Joseph and Mary did not Marry under the Catholic Church Laws, They Married under the Jewish Law. Which I will not even begin to try and address. So it becomes a TOTALLY different question.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Joseph and Mary did not Marry under the Catholic Church Laws, They Married under the Jewish Law. Which I will not even begin to try and address. So it becomes a TOTALLY different question.

Your point is one of the many things I learned… Thanks Brother…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Your point is one of the many things I learned… Thanks Brother…

I just checked two books commenting on Canon Law and Marriage. They both indicate that a Marriage where either person has willful intent to permanently exclude the possibility of children before the celebration of the Marriage, the Marriage is Null under today’s Canon Law.

 

[Bookcat]

I just checked two books commenting on Canon Law and Marriage. They both indicate that a Marriage where either person has willful intent to permanently exclude the possibility of children before the celebration of the Marriage, the Marriage is Null under today’s Canon Law.

which DOES NOT INCLUDE what we were talking about.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/07/marys_marriage.html

"Could a couple get married today, always abstain from the marital act, and still have a valid marriage?

Yes. This is known in Church history. It is referred to as “Josephite marriage” after St. Joseph. With a billion Catholics in the world, there are likely a number of such couples out there right now." --Jimmy Akin Catholic Answers

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

which DOES NOT INCLUDE what we were talking about.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/07/marys_marriage.html

"Could a couple get married today, always abstain from the marital act, and still have a valid marriage?

Yes. This is known in Church history. It is referred to as “Josephite marriage” after St. Joseph. With a billion Catholics in the world, there are likely a number of such couples out there right now." --Jimmy Akin Catholic Answers

As long as they did not deceive anyone during the Marriage preparation. However it’s hard to imagine though that children would not come up as a discussion topic or question, and they would have to answer truthfully. If they did the Marriage would not be permitted. It is also noted in this material that this is rooted in Natural Law and therefore cannot be dispensed with.

 

[Bookcat]

As long as they did not deceive anyone during the Marriage preparation. However it’s hard to imagine though that children would not come up as a discussion topic or question, and they would have to answer truthfully. If they did the Marriage would not be permitted. It is also noted in this material that this is rooted in Natural Law and therefore cannot be dispensed with.

not so.

the marriage prep is not so much involved here…that is not what makes a marriage valid or invalid.

but even then …the couple could very openly tell the priest they plan to marry and exchange the right to the marital act …and they know about the birds and the bees…but that they are going to live instead in this sort of marriage…no problem.

valid marriage.

the part about natural law is not the case either…for one can exchange the right to marital relations and choose not to act on that right in mutual agreement…

countless couples in history have done just that…it is rare of course…but still valid.

For this is not what Canon Law even since 1983 means…