Question on Papacy

[JimRyan]

A protestant friend I’ve been discussing Catholicism with sent me this e-mail. Please give me some ideas on what I should respond with. Thanks!

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Over the past few days you’ve gotten me pretty interested so i’ve done some in depth research on the portion of scripture that catholics use to defend the papacy (matt 16) and its been very interesting.

I don’t want to try and sum it up and make it all simple cause it
isn’t but one thing i’ve found that is troubling is that the spirit
the papcy brings just isn’t biblical. whats difficult i know is that
catholics quickly say, “we don’t rely totally on what scripture says” but whats troubling about that is that they do rely on scripture when it justifies their actions and when it doesn’t they quickly rely on papal authority to justify something.

All that to say, as i look deep into this one scripture…you’ve got to really stretch and manipulate the true spirit of the text to make it read as catholics wish…i don’t say that from just my opinion but that of trusted scholars. the deeper i look the more upset i get because i really see themes of power, control behind the papacy…not themes of humility,servanthood and submission to Christ.

 

[adrift]

there are thread on this already why don’t you do a search

this is just one thread
Studying the Foundation of the Roman Catholic Church - Peter the Rock

All that to say, as i look deep into this one scripture…you’ve got to really stretch and manipulate the true spirit of the text to make it read as catholics wish…

Actually the oposite is true, you have to stretch an manipulate to get what the prostestans want out of the verses. Good Luck

 

[JimRyan]

Thanks, I did a search, but I was looking for more of a direct response to his questions, so I just thought I’d create a thread to get some ideas.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi Jim,

He’s talking through his hat on this one.

Notice that what Adrift says is actually true.
Apostolic Succession (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 1 (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 2 (Fathers*)
Origins of Peter as Pope (Fathers*)
Papal Infallibility
Peter and the Papacy
Peter the Rock
Peter’s Primacy (Fathers*)
Peter’s Roman Residency (Fathers*)
Peter’s Successors (Fathers*)
Was Peter in Rome?

I don’t want to try and sum it up and make it all simple cause it isn’t but one thing i’ve found that is troubling is that the spirit the papcy brings just isn’t biblical.

Here he has made a statement that he cannot support from the Word of God. He may not agree with what we believe, but he’s dead wrong in the allegation that it is not biblical.

Point out that it is not only Biblical but supported by Christian history. It’s a case of the truth being witnessed to by more than a single witness.

You’re in my prayers.

 

[Teflon93]

A protestant friend I’ve been discussing Catholicism with sent me this e-mail. Please give me some ideas on what I should respond with. Thanks!

==

Over the past few days you’ve gotten me pretty interested so i’ve done some in depth research on the portion of scripture that catholics use to defend the papacy (matt 16) and its been very interesting.

I don’t want to try and sum it up and make it all simple cause it
isn’t but one thing i’ve found that is troubling is that the spirit
the papcy brings just isn’t biblical. whats difficult i know is that
catholics quickly say, “we don’t rely totally on what scripture says” but whats troubling about that is that they do rely on scripture when it justifies their actions and when it doesn’t they quickly rely on papal authority to justify something.

All that to say, as i look deep into this one scripture…you’ve got to really stretch and manipulate the true spirit of the text to make it read as catholics wish…i don’t say that from just my opinion but that of trusted scholars. the deeper i look the more upset i get because i really see themes of power, control behind the papacy…not themes of humility,servanthood and submission to Christ.

Might I suggest comparing Pope John Paul II’s homilies to the sermons delivered in your church if you’d like to answer the question of humility, servitude, and submission?

The Pope routinely displays more humility than every Protestant pastor I’ve known. But then I’ve never seen a Protestant pastor kneel to kiss the foot of the cross of Christ, nor wash the feet of the congregation, as happens every year in the Catholic Church during Holy Week.

I would be happy to direct your friend as to where he can find truly arrogant Protestant clergymen here in the heart of the Bible Belt if he would like to see for himself.

 

[Philthy]

A protestant friend I’ve been discussing Catholicism with sent me this e-mail. Please give me some ideas on what I should respond with. Thanks!

==

Over the past few days you’ve gotten me pretty interested so i’ve done some in depth research on the portion of scripture that catholics use to defend the papacy (matt 16) and its been very interesting.

I don’t want to try and sum it up and make it all simple cause it
isn’t but one thing i’ve found that is troubling is that the spirit
the papcy brings just isn’t biblical. whats difficult i know is that
catholics quickly say, “we don’t rely totally on what scripture says” but whats troubling about that is that they do rely on scripture when it justifies their actions and when it doesn’t they quickly rely on papal authority to justify something.

All that to say, as i look deep into this one scripture…you’ve got to really stretch and manipulate the true spirit of the text to make it read as catholics wish…i don’t say that from just my opinion but that of trusted scholars. the deeper i look the more upset i get because i really see themes of power, control behind the papacy…not themes of humility,servanthood and submission to Christ.

What would I say?
I would start off by asking,“Where in the Bible does it say to refer to the Bible for the rules of the Christian Faith?” You need to go backwards to go forwards with him. All questions of authority and what defines the Christian Faith stem from the question of “Is the Bible our rule of faith?”
To specifically address the concern “the spirit the papacy brings is just not biblical”:
I would say that that is just a little too subjective IMHO. It sounds like he has somehow granted himself the authority to judge another. How is that biblical? What specific problems inherent with the papacy does he have? Can we see them so that we can see where they *contradict *Scripture? It is important to emphasize that they must contradict Scripture rather than simply be derived from Scripture because he is implicitly proposing the standard that the papacy should be derived from Scripture. The reality is that the Church (and papacy) precedes the NT Scripture, it is not derived from it.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but I gotta run…

 

[VociMike]

Catholics don’t “rely on” scripture. Rather, scripture confirms the deposit of faith which God has given to the Church. Sometimes it confirms it very explicitly, sometimes less so, but Catholic doctrine never “comes from” scripture. It may be found in scripture (it usually is), but it does not derive from scripture. The doctrine existed first, then some of it was written down in varying degrees of clarity or obscurity.

One reason Catholics will cite scripture so often to Protestants is because that is the only authority they will listen to.

The comment about “trusted scholars” really gets to the core of the question. Is the truth of the faith to be determined by “trusted scholars” (that is, by human agencies), or by a divinely guided and inspired Church? The first answer is an absolute guarantee of error and failure. Only the second can work.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

All that to say, as i look deep into this one scripture…you’ve got to really stretch and manipulate the true spirit of the text to make it read as catholics wish…i don’t say that from just my opinion but that of trusted scholars.

That’s a fruitful line of attack. There is not much point lobbing verses at each other which seem to prove a particular point. The text should be read as a whole document. It is still not obvious what it says - Jesus appears to be first one thing, then another. It quite difficult to say Jesus was a … (insert word) … without qualification.

 

[dal11]

Tell him he relies on the authority of the Catholic Church he just dosen’t know it. Ask him where did we get the Bible?

 

[Spirithound]

thing i’ve found that is troubling is that the spirit the papcy brings just isn’t biblical…

…the deeper i look the more upset i get because i really see themes of power, control behind the papacy…not themes of humility,servanthood and submission to Christ.

I agree with Philthy that your friend has made a very subjective claim. I as well, am a fan of defining the question at hand very specifically. Ask your friend to give examples of those themes of power and control behind the papacy, and be prepared to give a rundown of the themes of humility, servanthood, and submission to Christ that you see in the papacy.
It occurs to me that your friend may see power and control in various Catholic doctrines that he doesn’t agree with, so be prepared for that. It may happen that you’ll have to vindicate the Pope dogma by dogma.
I shall be praying for you.