I’ll take your word for it that it is still called the "Leonine Prayer’. Now, are you saying that everyone should kneel when reciting the St. Michael prayer? Or are you saying that when the priest and altar servers stand when reciting this prayer that people should still kneel?OK, I see; you’re not asking about the proper rubric, but instead about what you should do in this situation. That said, understand clearly that when the 1970 Missal is silent, the 1962 Missal – or the most recent Roman Missal to address this topic – still holds the force of law. Whether we’re talking EF or OF doesn’t matter; it’s still the Roman Rite. And whether you are calling this a Leonine Prayer or not doesn’t matter; it is a Leonine Prayer. A good case in point is Benediction and Exposition. Recent liturgical books have not addressed it, and thus the proper form is still one dating from before Vatican II. That council and the work of its aftermath, contrary to popular belief, did not rescind all that came before it.
All are to kneel, including the priest and servers. If the priest and servers stand, kneel anyway. At least, that’s what I would do. But of course, I’m an Extraordinary Form Master of Ceremonies – which implies that I’m quite a stickler when it comes to liturgy – so I’m in that odd position where clergy actually look to me for advice and follow my lead in these matters.I’ll take your word for it that it is still called the "Leonine Prayer’. Now, are you saying that everyone should kneel when reciting the St. Michael prayer? Or are you saying that when the priest and altar servers stand when reciting this prayer that people should still kneel?
Being an extra prayer, there will be nothing specific in the GIRM as to posture. Usually, the Parish does as the priest does, but if someone wants to kneel, I think that’s fine for saint prayer.Many parishes across the country have taken up the practice of reciting the Prayer to St. Michael after the final blessing and before the final hymn. Our parish follows the example of our pastor to kneel when reciting the St. Michael prayer. However, when we have a visiting priest, depending on the priest, some remain standing. So in such cases, the Deacon and altar servers also remain standing. Most of the congregation (with the exception of one or sometimes up to about 10 or so) will kneel because that is what our pastor does- or because that is how it is usually done in our parish. My question is: What is the* proper *posture for the congregation to follow in situations like this, when the presiding priest and those in the sanctuary remain standing? This is not a “What would you do” question. My question is an attempt to get at the proper posture to follow.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. And I don’t doubt that you are very knowledgeable about the liturgy. But I gather that you are not exactly sure of what to do in the situation that I have given. otherwise, you would not have written, “at least that is what I would do”. I am sure that other experts may have a different opinion.All are to kneel, including the priest and servers. If the priest and servers stand, kneel anyway. At least, that’s what I would do. But of course, I’m an Extraordinary Form Master of Ceremonies – which implies that I’m quite a stickler when it comes to liturgy – so I’m in that odd position where clergy actually look to me for advice and follow my lead in these matters.
I think go back and read all his posts, especially the initial one which states…Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. And I don’t doubt that you are very knowledgeable about the liturgy. But I gather that you are not exactly sure of what to do in the situation that I have given. otherwise, you would not have written, “at least that is what I would do”. I am sure that other experts may have a different opinion.
Yes, do go back and read all of the posts.I think go back and read all his posts, especially the initial one which states…
“Nonetheless, it’s likely best not to stand out too much in this;** it’s not a matter of grave importance**.”
He’s given you both the legalistic answer and what is probably best in the situation.
And I must admit that the answer I would give is not the answer that all clergy or liturgists would give. I read your question through the lens of tradition and continuity, and thus immediately see that what your pastor is doing is, partially, praying part of the Leonine Prayers after Low Mass, and thus we have the guidance regarding posture, position, and such from the customary practice of the Leonine Prayers. In short, this is not a novelty, but a revived custom that has fallen into abeyance. Indeed, I see it as a great example of what Pope Benedict called mutual enrichment.Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. And I don’t doubt that you are very knowledgeable about the liturgy. But I gather that you are not exactly sure of what to do in the situation that I have given. otherwise, you would not have written, “at least that is what I would do”. I am sure that other experts may have a different opinion.
The prayers that we pray at the end of the low Mass in the Extraordinary Form are a little more that the lone St. Michael Prayer that we pray after all Masses in the Ordinary Form. Our pastor has an appreciation for the Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and has taken the time to learn how to celebrate it properly, taking several months to learn and practice with priests in the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter in our Archdiocese. And he is making it available in our parish for those who would like to attend including people coming from surrounding parishes. I do not know why he decided to begin the practice of praying the St. Michael prayer at the end of the NO Mass as many other priests have done including those at the highest level. Even the bishop led us in the St. Michael prayer at the end of the Mass celebrated prior to our March For Life. I believe it has more to do with the need for the conversion of our country than it has to do with any “novelty” or “experimentation.” And our altar servers are trained very well by our pastor. They attend altar server boot camp every summer. It is training for new servers and a refresher or review training for the older ones.And I must admit that the answer I would give is not the answer that all clergy or liturgists would give. I read your question through the lens of tradition and continuity, and thus immediately see that what your pastor is doing is, partially, praying part of the Leonine Prayers after Low Mass, and thus we have the guidance regarding posture, position, and such from the customary practice of the Leonine Prayers. In short, this is not a novelty, but a revived custom that has fallen into abeyance. Indeed, I see it as a great example of what Pope Benedict called mutual enrichment.
However, it could be that your pastor or any of these visiting priests aren’t even thinking of the custom of the Leonine Prayers in this act, and thus don’t consider their old use. Indeed, they might even think it a novelty. Not too many seem aware that most priests are rather ambivalent about liturgy. Those who care tend either to be experimental with the liturgy to the point of recklessness or say the TLM frequently. In the vast middle ground, most priests, like most faithful, simply do what they know and what they’ve been doing or observing for a long time. So certain priests will stand through these and most servers will be none the wiser.
So I can give you the best call I’d make if I were MCing that Mass – which is odd, I know, as the opportunity to MC an NO Mass is quite rare for the reason I listed in the last paragraph. It would be a matter that I’d speak to the priest and other servers about in the sacristy before Mass, knowing that the faithful are looking at us for their cues.
Thank you, Your answer certainly makes sense and for the most part is closest to the answer that was given by the head of Liturgy in our archdiocese. I guess what I am trying to get at, is that I was wanting to know if there was some “rule of thumb” to follow when there is no liturgical law that applies or if so, that it is unknown. When I was a child, I seem to remember being told to follow the posture of the altar servers- that would be the “rule of thumb”. It would seem that today, the “rule of thumb” (in reference to the response that I received from the head liturgist) is to go with the “common posture of the assembly” even though one is not bound by any liturgical rule in this situation and may kneel or stand. So far in our parish, in regards to praying the St. Michael prayer, it is obvious what the “common posture of the assembly” is because most of the assembly kneels. However there are a few occasions on some Sunday’s when there is a larger amount of people, close to even half, who go either way. So there is no “common posture of the assembly” especially to guide those who are visiting the parish.“Prior liturgical law” does not carry forward as to the prayer, as the prayer was eliminated when the OF was promulgated. Rather than being a part of the liturgy, as it was before, it is now a private prayer. And arguing over form (sit/stand) makes just as much sense as some of the arguments about how to say the rosary.
If the custom in the parish with the resident priest is to kneel, then one certainly can follow the custom when a visiting priest is there, but there is no law attached to it other than the law of common sense - which, as Voltaire put it, is not all that common. So one can follow the posture of the visiting priest (who obviously did not get the memo from the pastor that the pastor kneels), or one can follow the parish custom, and kneel.
As the prayer is no longer part of the liturgy, it is an oxymoron that liturgical law applies to a non liturgical act. We stand during the liturgy to say the Our Father; as that is part of the liturgy, and there is a liturgical law for it.
Say the Our Father anywhere else, and there is no liturgical law as to posture.
Understood.Thank you, Your answer certainly makes sense and for the most part is closest to the answer that was given by the head of Liturgy in our archdiocese. I guess what I am trying to get at, is that I was wanting to know if there was some “rule of thumb” to follow when there is no liturgical law that applies or if so, that it is unknown. When I was a child, I seem to remember being told to follow the posture of the altar servers- that would be the “rule of thumb”. It would seem that today, the “rule of thumb” (in reference to the response that I received from the head liturgist) is to go with the “common posture of the assembly” even though one is not bound by any liturgical rule in this situation and may kneel or stand. So far in our parish, in regards to praying the St. Michael prayer, it is obvious what the “common posture of the assembly” is because most of the assembly kneels. However there are a few occasions on some Sunday’s when there is a larger amount of people, close to even half, who go either way. So there is no “common posture of the assembly” especially to guide those who are visiting the parish.
Yes, this question is really no big deal and it is nothing to fret over. But sometimes it is just something that is nice to know.