Question on the Ten Commandments

  • Thread starter Thread starter oudave
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

oudave

Guest
Hi
I was told that the CCC does not contain the second Commandment as in the old testament and the tenth is split into the ninth and tenth commandments. Is this true?
Dave
 
Hello Dave,

I know that the Protestants have the ten commandments numbered and stated differently than the Catholic Church. I think the Protestants have not turning to idols as a separate commandment. It seems obvious that not turning to idols would be covered in the first commandment to worship God alone and not to worship false gods.

As to the Old Testament I don’t think it is as clear cut as you may be thinking. I posted the only two listings of the ten commandments that I know of in the Old Testament. What do you think?

Maybe someone can cut and past the Protestant and Catholic versions of the ten commandments.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

NAB LEV 19:1 Various Rules of Conduct.

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them:
Be holy, for I, The LORD, your God, am holy. Revere your mother and father, and keep my sabbaths. I, the LORD, am your God.
"Do not turn aside to idols, nor make molten gods for yourselves. I, the LORD, am your God.
"When you sacrifice your peace offering to the LORD, if you wish it to be acceptable, it must be eaten on the very day of your sacrifice or on the following day. Whatever is left over until the third day shall be burned up in the fire. If any of it is eaten on the third day, the sacrifice will be unacceptable as refuse; whoever eats of it then shall pay the penalty for having profaned what is sacred to the LORD. Such a one shall be cut off from his people.
"When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not be so thorough that you reap the field to its very edge, nor shall you glean the stray ears of grain. Likewise, you shall not pick your vineyard bare, not gather up the grapes that have fallen. These things you shall leave for the poor and the alien. I, the LORD, am your God.
"You shall not steal. You shall not lie or speak falsely to one another. You shall not swear falsely by my name thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD.
"You shall not defraud or rob your neighbor. You shall not withhold overnight the wages of your day laborer. You shall not curse the deaf, or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but you shall fear your God. I am the LORD.
"You shall not act dishonestly in rendering judgment. Show neither partiality to the weak nor deference to the mighty, but judge your fellow men justly. You shall not go about spreading slander among your kinsmen; nor shall you stand by idly when your neighbor’s life is at stake. I am the LORD.
“You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.”

NAB DEU 5:6

‘I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments. 'You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain. 'Take care to keep holy the sabbath day as the LORD, your God, commanded you. Six days you may labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then, whether by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or *** or any of your beasts, or the alien who lives with you. Your male and female slave should rest as you do. For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, brought you from there with his strong hand and outstretched arm. That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the sabbath day. 'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, that you may have a long life and prosperity in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you. 'You shall not kill. 'You shall not commit adultery. 'You shall not steal. 'You shall not bear dishonest witness against your neighbor. 'You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. ‘You shall not desire your neighbor’s house or field, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ***, nor anything that belongs to him.’ "These words, and nothing more, the LORD spoke with a loud voice to your entire assembly on the mountain from the midst of the fire and the dense cloud. He wrote them upon two tablets of stone and gave them to me.
 
Post this to the Ask An Apologist thread Dave.

There are actually about a dozen different ways that the Decalogue is listed and they do not all match. In fact the two places in the OT do not exactly match…

Your info is only partly accurate…
What you call the 2nd commandment is part of the 1st.
Nine and Ten both have to do with covetousness.

AAA will give you much better info on this.
 
Steve,
You’ve missed Exodus 20.

The ten commandments.

1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain. 8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. 10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house: neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor any thing that is his. 18 And all the people saw the voices and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mount smoking: and being terrified and struck with fear, they stood afar off, 19 Saying to Moses: Speak thou to us, and we will hear: let not the Lord speak to us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said to the people: Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that the dread of him might be in you, and you should not sin.

21 And the people stood afar off. But Moses went to the dark cloud wherein God was. 22 And the Lord said to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: You have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 23 You shall not make gods of silver, nor shall you make to yourselves gods of gold. 24 You shall make an altar of earth unto me, and you shall offer upon it your holocausts and peace offerings, your sheep and oxen, in every place where the memory of my name shall be: I will come to thee, and will bless thee. 25 And if thou make an altar of stone unto me, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones: for if thou lift up a tool upon it, it shall be defiled.

26 Thou shalt not go up by steps unto my altar, lest thy nakedness be discovered.

Notes: 4 “A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing”… All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10.
 
Church Militant:
Steve,
You’ve missed Exodus 20.

Hello Church Militant,

I did. And the most important refference to the commandments at that. I had it store seperate from the others. I apologize. I guess I should not work on posts so late at night. Thanks for the clarification.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Click to expand...
 
Steven Merten:
Church Militant:
Steve,
You’ve missed Exodus 20.

Hello Church Militant,

I did. And the most important refference at that. I had it store seperate from the others. I apologize. I guess I should not work on posts so late at night. Thanks for the clarification.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Click to expand...
:yawn: :sleep: I know the feeling my friend… I know the feeling. LOL.
Click to expand...
 
Just to throw more into the mix, not only do the Catholic and Protestant versions differ (I believe, though, that Lutherans use the Catholic numbering), they are both different from the Jewish version of the decalogue. This site here lists them side-by-side to show the differences. Interestingly, the Jewish version doesn’t recognize “no graven images” as a separate commandment either.
 
40.png
oudave:
Hi
I was told that the CCC does not contain the second Commandment as in the old testament and the tenth is split into the ninth and tenth commandments. Is this true?
Dave
Click to expand...
:nope: No, this is not thrue! The only ones that says so is SDA’s (Seven Days Adventists) who are extreme haters of the Catholic Church.

🙂 There are sevreal ways to split up the commandments that are spread over 15-17 verses in the Bible. How they have been split up, have varied over time. What matters is not how they are split up, (so they can easy be remembered), but that **ALL the content ** are to be found inside the frames of the Decaloge! :yup:

(Try to tell that to a SDA and he will stay there stubborn and say that you have not understood it; when he smiles and looks like an angel)!

That all the commandments are recognized by the Catholic Church you can see for yourself if you do the following:
  1. Read Exodus 20:1-17 in the Bible (17 verses).
  2. Read Deuteronomy 5:6-21 in the Bible (15 verses).
  3. Go into this link and read you through **all ** the commandments as it is wirtten in our Cathechism and read **everything that is written about every commandment ** in the Catholic Cathechism. Don’t forget to click on Next when you have read through on page or one commandment! (SDA’s don’t use a catheshism. They don’t even read Luthers cathechism). If you find one of the bibleverses missing in our cathechism, please tell us!
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P78.HTM

As you will see when you open the presented link: The Ten Commandments are given a lot of “serious space” in the Catholic Church! :getholy:

You will need some time to go seriously through it, but I hope you will find it worth the time and effort. When people set out rumours, it is worth to take a good look yourself! 👍

:blessyou:

G.Grace
 
Gratias Grace:
  1. Read Exodus 20:1-17 in the Bible (17 verses).
  2. Read Deuteronomy 5:6-21 in the Bible (15 verses).
Click to expand...
And to add some fun, read Exo 34, the only chapter where they are really *called *the ten commandments.

It tells the story of Moses writing them down for a 2nd time, because he has broken the first set. And although God says, he repeats what he had said Exo 20, he dictates completely different rules. 😃
 
Hi
I was told that the CCC does not contain the second Commandment as in the old testament and the tenth is split into the ninth and tenth commandments. Is this true?
Dave
Click to expand...
http://members.tripod.com/SDAdventist/bobs10c.htm

Who ever told you that is a Seventh Day Adventist, a Jehovah’s Witness or a hostile fundamentalist who has borrowed this false charge from the cults because they are running out of ammunition. Please examine the above link, it’s not that long. Then decide for yourself who really changed the Ten Commandments.

Following this line of thinking is the “false idols” insult by bigots who haven’t the slightest clue of what the biblical definition of an idol is. They have contorted the bible to justify their hatred for the Catholic Church. Worse, they have no regard for the heart-felt beliefs of others, especially Catholics. It’s a kind of sadism that is contrary to the essentials of the Gospel message. If you admonish their behaviour, they tell you that you are “un-Christian”.

Anti-Catholicism of this nature is the crack-cocaine of popular prot-cult religionism. It’s an industry in the billions of dollars, readily available in the slums of fear and ignorance.

kepha1

again: http://members.tripod.com/SDAdventist/bobs10c.htm
 
posted by mtr01Just to throw more into the mix, not only do the Catholic and Protestant versions differ (I believe, though, that Lutherans use the Catholic numbering), they are both different from the Jewish version of the decalogue. This site here lists them side-by-side to show the differences. Interestingly, the Jewish version doesn’t recognize “no graven images” as a separate commandment either.
Click to expand...
That is interesting. Especially since I specifically hear that Catholics threw out the 2nd commandment so we could make our statues. Yet, the Jews never split up no gods before me and idols either, but are not accused of idol worship.

It is amazing what you can learn when a person actually checks the facts. The Truth!

God Bless,
Maria

p.s. I did not at first check out the link, because I “know” my commandmants. But the visual side by side was great. Thanks.
 
40.png
MariaG:
That is interesting. Especially since I specifically hear that Catholics threw out the 2nd commandment so we could make our statues. Yet, the Jews never split up no gods before me and idols either, but are not accused of idol worship.

It is amazing what you can learn when a person actually checks the facts. The Truth!

God Bless,
Maria

p.s. I did not at first check out the link, because I “know” my commandmants. But the visual side by side was great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Hi Maria, Whats interesting in the Jewish commandments is the First commandment is not a command. :confused: God Bless
 
40.png
MariaG:
That is interesting. Especially since I specifically hear that Catholics threw out the 2nd commandment so we could make our statues. Yet, the Jews never split up no gods before me and idols either, but are not accused of idol worship.

It is amazing what you can learn when a person actually checks the facts. The Truth!

God Bless,
Maria

p.s. I did not at first check out the link, because I “know” my commandmants. But the visual side by side was great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
You’ve got it Maria. They accuse us for taking away the second commandment because they think we want to worship our statues. But they don’t understand that we don’t worship statues, only Christ in the Holy Eucarist!

Who talked about missing that aubout “graven images”?

From the CCC:
2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.

“YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
IN BRIEF

2133 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your strength” (Deut 6:5).

2134 The first commandment summons man to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him above all else.

2135 “You shall worship the Lord your God” (Mt 4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.

2136 The duty to offer God authentic worship concerns man both as an individual and as a social being.

2137 “Men of the present day want to profess their religion freely in private and in public” (DH 15).

2138 Superstition is a departure from the worship that we give to the true God. It is manifested in idolatry, as well as in various forms of divination and magic.

2139 Tempting God in words or deeds, sacrilege, and simony are sins of irreligion forbidden by the first commandment.

2140 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.​

G.Grace
 
There are at least three ways the commandments have been divided within Judaism: 1) Rabbinic, 2) Philo/Josephus, and 3) Torah Scrolls. See the following chart by biblical scholar Jay Treat (who was gracious enough to dialogue with me when I first encountered the dilemma):

ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rels/002/Judaism/decalog.html

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that “The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi)”. *.

newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm

The “Hebrew text” refers to the “Torah Scrolls” that Augustine used.

Jewish traditions are quick to point out that what is actually being counted are the “10 words” or “10sayings” (“deka-logos”). That is why in some Jewish numberings the 1st “commandment” isn’t a “commandment” at all - they are counting “statements”. If you start at the beginnining and actually count commandments you come up with more than 10.

So numbering the commandments is a problem for all parties concerned. Inevitably the statements need to be grouped together somewhat (although not entirely) arbitrarily. Hence, the great diversity of numberings.

As other posts have pointed out, it is the CONTENT that matters. All this business about “obscuring” the so-called “2nd commandment” is nothing more than Anti-catholic fantasy.

Incidentally, I would like to see a fundamentalist try to justify “sola scriptura” the Protestant numbering of the commandments (not to mention how many were on each tablet)…

Grace & Peace*
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top