Question on "traditional" Catholics

[jesusmademe]

In the Western part of the Church we have the so called “traditional” Catholics?
Do you in the Eastern/Oriental part of the Church also have people who call themselves “traditionals” or is this simply just a thing for the West?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The only “traditional” group is the Society of St. Josaphat. Some UGCC priests reached out to the SSPX in the late 1990s and wanted to be affiliated with them.

They offer the Divine Liturgy and follow the Byzantine Tradition but also keep traditional Latin devotions like the Stations of the Cross.

I used to support them but found out that they are ordained by the SSPX bishops who use the Latin formula ordination.

As much as I love the SSPX, it irks me that they would not follow the Byzantine Rite of ordination. That’s why I stopped supporting them. I know that the SSPX bishops aren’t familiar with our rite of ordination but if the Church is in a state of emergency as +Lefebvre said, then all things are allowed. In the gulag RC priests used leavened bread in order to confect the Eucharist, which is ordinarily forbidden in the RC Church, so I don’t see why they couldn’t use our rite of ordination since the SSPX wants to preserve the Tradition of the Church.

Anyway, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk excommunicated them.

The other group I’ve heard of is a sedevacantist group calling itself the “Byzantine Catholic Patriarchate” with a “Byzantine Catholic Patriarch”. Stay away from them!* The real Byzantine Catholic Church only has bishops, not a patriarch.

Does that help?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Yes, and much like their Western counterparts, they also defend things as traditional, that are a lot more recent than they think. Of course, I would be careful about asking questions like that here, because you’re always going to get people that defend them. I will point out, that with actual traditional Eastern Catholicism, the Vatican actually spearheaded a movement to delatinise Eastern churches, which is a very good thing. I remember going to an Eastern Catholic Church up north, and I saw on its website, what I thought was a 3D image, nah it just looked like it. That said, I have gone to an Eastern Catholic church that was very latinised, except the music the music was not

 

[ziapueblo]

There are a number of Byzantine Catholics that refer to themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” I was one of them and would put them in that “traditional” category.

ZP

 

[jesusmademe]

In the West we have the OF vs the EF.
We also have people who celebrate the OF in a way that many people who go to the OF would disslike (eg guitar Mass). Sometimes the Church condemns how Mass is being celebrated.
Do you have simmilar issues in the East/Orient?

 

[commenter]

In the Western part of the Church we have the so called “traditional” Catholics?

Just a clarification on terminology. All orthodox Catholics are “traditional” in the sense that they rely on guidance of Bible, magisterium, and Tradition.

In recent years some other Catholics are essentially “solo Traditio” meaning that Tradition alone is sufficient, and that it can stand alone, understandable by the layman, not in need of specialized interpretation by the current Magisterium.
This second group are “traditionalists”.

For instance, some Traditional Catholics prefer the Latin Mass. They are different in important ways from Traditionalists Catholics who prefer it.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

jesusmademe:

In the Western part of the Church we have the so called “traditional” Catholics?

Just a clarification on terminology. All orthodox Catholics are “traditional” in the sense that they rely on guidance of Bible, magisterium, and Tradition .

In recent years some other Catholics are essentially “solo Traditio” meaning that Tradition alone is sufficient, and that it can stand alone, understandable by the layman, not in need of specialized interpretation by the current Magisterium.
This second group are “ traditionalists ”.

Not so. Every TC I know believes in Scripture, Tradition and the perennial Magisterium. What many TCs want to know is how VII is in continuity with previous teaching. The SSPX accepts the VII documents which (they say) are in continuity with the constant teaching of the Church and make reservations or do not accept those parts which (they say) are not in accord with the prior teaching of the Church.

VII has been dissected, analyzed and commented on for 50+ years and the arguments go on almost ad infinitum. I’m tired of it all but the fact remains that many people have questions and aren’t getting straight answers, which is important since “the supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls” (RC Code of Canon Law).

Second, most TCs don’t have an axe to grind (except probably the sedevacantist groups) but want to pass on the Catholic Faith “whole and entire” (Athanasian Creed) to their children.

One RC lady I knew (she died 13 years ago) fought tooth and nail against heretical catechisms, going against the principal & teachers of the Catholic school her kids attended. Eventually she came to our UGCC parish. She knew +Michael Davies and many of the early TC pioneers who fought to have the TLM.

Finally, as much as people agree or disagree with +Lefebvre, most Catholic commentators agree that without him and the SSPX, the TLM would not be as widely available in the RCC. The FSSP, ICKSP and other communities which have the TLM owe a great debt to him.

Sorry for the long reply.

 

[Vico]

…

Of the fourteen Constantinopolitan (Byzantine) Tradition Catholic sui iuris churches, only the Greek-Melkite has a Patriarch – probably because it is the oldest – so the others could at most be Major Archiepiscopal churches.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Oops! My bad!

Also, it was ++Husar who excommunicated the Society of St. Josaphat, not His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk.

 

[whatistrue]

many people have questions and aren’t getting straight answers,

Is it that they really aren’t getting “straight” answers, or more that they simply don’t like the answers that they are getting? I would think that any deliberate obfuscation would have been ferreted out in 50+ years, leaving a simple refusal to accept. But what do I know, I am just another random Internet stranger.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Example: Inter-religious dialogue. Prior to VII, Catholics were forbidden to participate in non-Catholic services nor to pray with them:

http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-...ts/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos.html

Now Catholics are told they can participate in non-Catholic prayer services as long as they don’t "receive ‘communion’ ". “Ecumenical” services are almost all over the place.

The Catholic Church IS the Ark of Salvation and the Barque of Peter. That teaching will never change. So why do so many churchmen tell their flocks it’s ok to participate in non-Catholic services?

 

[dochawk]

an (Byzantine) Tradition Catholic sui iuris churches, only the Greek-Melkite has a Patriarch

yeah, try telling that to the Ukrainians . . .

:crazy_face:

The Ukrainian Catholics have been using the P-word for their leader for a few years now.

Rome is biting her tongue.

 

[Jbrady]

The Ukrainian Catholics have been using the P-word for their leader for a few years now.

If that “P-word” is “Pope”, they would be correct, as the head of the UGCC is none other than Pope Francis, who is the head of all of the particular churches.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

If that “P-word” is “Pope”, they would be correct, as the head of the UGCC is none other than Pope Francis, who is the head of all of the particular churches.

“Major-Archbishop” (Patriarch) Sviatoslav is the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Bishop of Rome. There’s a difference.

 

[whatistrue]

I understand that there was a change in the expression of the doctrine. But the issue I am seeing is that the explanation of the change was apparently rejected. So there is a straight answer, it is just not accepted. And shouldn’t that be “attend” rather than “participate”?

 

[AlNg]

it was ++Husar who excommunicated the Society of St. Josaphat

St. Josaphat is a controversial figure as some Eastern Orthodox do not view him as a saint.

 

[Elvis_George]

The Holy Synod has abolished the practice, although this does wait the approval of the Pope. May our Pope abolish this practice once and for all!

 

[Elvis_George]

The desicion has to first be approved by the Pope. After the approval, the 2 archeparchies have to use the delatinised, traditional way of celebrating the Qurbana

 

[HomeschoolDad]

There are a number of Byzantine Catholics that refer to themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” I was one of them and would put them in that “traditional” category.

But isn’t that the working definition of an Eastern Rite Catholic in the first place? (Maronites might be a separate case, in that they were never “Orthodox”, capital letter O.)

That is the shorthand way I describe Eastern Catholics in my son’s homeschool religion and history class. I also explain to him that Orthodox basically hold the entire Catholic Faith, they just do not accept the authority of the Pope, and that they are essentially part of the Church, just in an imperfect union.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Well, there is also the Chaldean Catholic and SyroMalabar Catholics. Our equivalent Eastern Church is the Assyrian Church of the East. Which both the OO and EO Orthodox have considered to be a heretical group.

I realize that, but I didn’t know that both OO and EO consider the Assyrian Church to be heretical.

Yet one more reason that apostolic Christianity needs a “court of final appeal”, so to speak, in the person of the Roman Pontiff. I would not want to see Rome attempt to micro-manage the Eastern Churches — they don’t need to be “micro-managed”, they’ve been managing their own affairs for 2000 years and they’ve gotten pretty good at it by now — but there does arise a need to have someone to make a decision, and have the authority to “make it stick”.

I am all in favor of de-Latinization of the Eastern Churches. I have no desire to impose alien spiritualities upon people who think and pray differently.