Question regarding maronite liturgy

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Hello,

I have a question for my maronite bretheren.

When did the maronite church start facing the people, instead of the altar. I dont have an issue with this, but from what I have read they have for alot longer then rome,
 
Hello,

I have a question for my maronite bretheren.

When did the maronite church start facing the people, instead of the altar. I dont have an issue with this, but from what I have read they have for alot longer then rome,
I, actually, DO have an issue with the practice, and a major one at that. The very idea that the Maronites, alone in the Orient and East, did this is a laughable piece of revisionist fiction. So, in a word, no, it is NOT traditional. What it is, in fact, is monkey-see monkey-do. :mad:

The business of using a versus populum table is the most obvious, and perhaps the most insidious, of the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations rampant in the Maronite Church. :mad: It got its start just after the same trend began in the Latin Church, meaning it’s a post-conciliar innovation. It had its beginnings in the US (no surprise there) after 1965 and spread gradually to the Patriarchal Territories. 😦
 
from what I have read they have for alot longer then rome,
As with any historical revisionist claim, I ask that it be substantiated with primary sources [or at least secondary sources that use primary sources]. One can clearly tell that is baseless revisionism if they look at older Maronite churches that have, for the most part, been left unchanged. What comes to mind is Mort Marina in the Holy Valley - it’s basically a church front built around a grotto with a latin style altar against the rocks - impossible to say mass versus populum.

However, let one concede that ad orientem was mandated by the Maronite implementation of Trent. What evidence is there to suggest that ANY Church said liturgy versus populum pre-Vatican II? Perhaps certain instances dictated that liturgical east and cardinal east not be exactly the same, but the priest still faced liturgical east. There’s an entire easily accessible theology to facing east that makes it intuitive, to which facing west does not have. Substantiation of evidence is all I ask.
 
It is my understanding from other very knowledgeable forum-goers here that a freestanding altar and even the versus populum orientation have their roots in monastic patrimony that stretches back at least a thousand years. It was the tradition in monasteries for all the brothers to gather around the altar, and naturally because it was freestanding they would all be facing each other. It is my understanding that the post-Conciliar exhortations to construct freestanding altars was in imitation and recovery of this ancient monastic tradition, and besides, versus populum has always, always been permitted in the Roman Rite, and you need look no farther than St. Peter’s Basilica to see that this is true.
 
However, let one concede that ad orientem was mandated by the Maronite implementation of Trent. What evidence is there to suggest that ANY Church said liturgy versus populum pre-Vatican II? Perhaps certain instances dictated that liturgical east and cardinal east not be exactly the same, but the priest still faced liturgical east. There’s an entire easily accessible theology to facing east that makes it intuitive, to which facing west does not have. Substantiation of evidence is all I ask.
Not a true concession. Within the Roman Church, there are several bits of exceptions to the “facing east with the people.”

There are known several Roman Rite churches where the freestanding altar had graves with markers immediately where the priest would have had to stand for ad orientam, and no second altar. The graves are pre-Trent.

There are also a couple of churches where the altar is in the west, while the rubric calls for facing east, not facing the altar; and illustrations of masses there pre-trent show ad orientam - to the east, to the altar, and to the people all at once, but that’s a quirk. One is in France, one in Rome.

Further, several monastic rites pre-Trent were concelebrated with the celebrants around a central altar, and the brothers around them; they now celebrate the Roman Mass in the same way.

It was not the norm, but the Roman Church didn’t make an issue of it until Trent.
 
Not a true concession. Within the Roman Church, there are several bits of exceptions to the “facing east with the people.”

There are known several Roman Rite churches where the freestanding altar had graves with markers immediately where the priest would have had to stand for ad orientam, and no second altar. The graves are pre-Trent.

There are also a couple of churches where the altar is in the west, while the rubric calls for facing east, not facing the altar; and illustrations of masses there pre-trent show ad orientam - to the east, to the altar, and to the people all at once, but that’s a quirk. One is in France, one in Rome.
These are essentially the same thing, (I know of the Major Basilicas and one or two other places in Rome – never heard of one in France), where there is a confessio beneath the sanctuary. The altar faces east, more-or-less overlooking the confessio. But that doesn’t exactly translate into versus populum. Neither does “free-standing” equate with “versus populum” as is so often suggested. All the great cathedrals in Europe (and long pre-Trent) had free-standing altars used ad orientem. And of course there are post-Trent and pre-1965 churches there and elsewhere that have free-standing altars, traditionally used ad orientem, as well.

Sorry that I’ve little interest in this today today, but in any case perhaps Patrick457 would be better suited to expounding on pre-Tridentine Western practice.

What I will do, however, is echo what I said earlier, i.e, that Western practice notwithstanding, the use of versus populum tables by the Maronites is 100% a post-conciliar innovation. The revisionists’ contention to the contrary is baseless.
Further, several monastic rites pre-Trent were concelebrated with the celebrants around a central altar, and the brothers around them; they now celebrate the Roman Mass in the same way.

It was not the norm, but the Roman Church didn’t make an issue of it until Trent.
Which “monastic Rites” are those? I’m intimately familiar with the concept of choir, where the monks (or friars) face one another across the chancel. AFAIK, in the oldest structures, the altar was usually situated to the end of the choir, so again, we don’t exactly have versus populum there either.
 
It is my understanding from other very knowledgeable forum-goers here that a freestanding altar and even the versus populum orientation have their roots in monastic patrimony that stretches back at least a thousand years. It was the tradition in monasteries for all the brothers to gather around the altar, and naturally because it was freestanding they would all be facing each other. It is my understanding that the post-Conciliar exhortations to construct freestanding altars was in imitation and recovery of this ancient monastic tradition, and besides, versus populum has always, always been permitted in the Roman Rite, and you need look no farther than St. Peter’s Basilica to see that this is true.
It is one thing for monastics to gather around the altar, if that is truly their ancient tradition, but it is quite another matter for the laity to do so. The latter has no place in any tradition.
 
Is there a movement within the maronite church that still prays the pre conciliar church liturgy?
 
Is there a movement within the maronite church that still prays the pre conciliar church liturgy?
Interesting question. There are those who prefer it, (at least as a place-holder for a true restoration as envisioned by our early 20th Century Patriarchs), but AFAIK, it’s not been done publicly.
 
It is one thing for monastics to gather around the altar, if that is truly their ancient tradition, but it is quite another matter for the laity to do so. The latter has no place in any tradition.
it was the norm in the early church, both in houses and catecombs, as attested by surviving wall paintings, and not uncommon in the underground UGCC and Ruthenian GCC under communism… especially when the kitchen table was used for liturgy.

Simple matter of getting the faithful in for liturgy.
 
it was the norm in the early church, both in houses and catecombs, as attested by surviving wall paintings, and not uncommon in the underground UGCC and Ruthenian GCC under communism… especially when the kitchen table was used for liturgy.

Simple matter of getting the faithful in for liturgy.
There are also catacomb altars that were built against the wall such as would not allow the congregation to “gather round”. Regardless, doctrine and praxis develops and what the early Church may or may not have done is not always our model. The extraordinary circumstances of celebrating the liturgy under persecution is obviously an exception in a lot of ways…but that doesn’t mean that the ideal doesn’t remain celebrating the liturgy within a proper temple.
 
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