Question regarding the Immaculate Conception

[LionHeart777]

All, my understanding was that she had free will; i.e. it was possible for her to sin but she did not. The reason I started the thread was because I seem to have come across some misinformation on the OCA website:

“I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to. In the Roman Catholic understanding, it seems that Mary, who according to Roman doctrine had been exempted from the guilt of original sin…before all eternity, and thus could not have sinned.” (oca.org/QA.asp?ID=116&SID=3) (Accessed 3/ 6/ 10) (Emphasis mine.)

I would like to say that we should all give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not trying to purposefully misrepresent Catholic teaching on the website, and Fr. John Matusiak has always been very helpful whenever I have had a question and is prompt with his responses.

Perhaps I should send an e-mail to clear up the misunderstanding?

Thanks for responding everyone.

 

[Cathoholic]

Jesus is the “New Adam”. Mary is the “New Eve”.

God Himself has put enmity (“enmities”) between the New Adam (who IS true God and true man) and the serpent.

God Himself has also put enmity between the New Eve (who is a human creature) and the serpent.

This is WHY she is “FULL of grace” because GOD is putting the enmities between them. This was prophesied even in Genesis. Typological imagery would show other places in Scripture as well but this takes much prayer and meditation to see typological imagery in Sacred Scripture. Reading the Fathers helps.

GENESIS 3:15a 15 I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed; . . .

The early Church DID and still does teach the Immaculate Conception. And nobody wrote immediately against them saying “how dare you guys speak of the Blessed Virgin Mary this way!”

Read the ancient Church Fathers and draw your own conclusions.

Theodotus of Ancyra in Galatia, who was martyred in 303 A.D. under Emperor Diocletian’s persecution.

“In place of the virgin Eve, mediatrix of death, a virgin has been filled with God’s grace to be the minister of life; a virgin has been fashioned possessing the nature of a woman, but without part in her fault (malice); a virgin, innocent, without blemish,
all immaculate, inviolate, spotless, holy in soul and body who has blossomed as a lily from among thorns, unlearned in the evil ways of Eve. . . . When yet unborn she was consecrated to God, and when born was offered to God as a sign of gratitude. . . Clothed with divine grace as with a garment, her soul filled with a wisdom divine, in heart wedded to God, she received God in her womb, [she who is] in fact
the Mother of God. . . .”
–St. Theodotus of Ancyra Homily 6, On Holy Mary, Mother of God, and on the Holy Nativity of Christ, 11 (PG, 77, 1427).
Source = “Mary in the Documents of the Church p.52

This is NOT they way modern day deniers of the Immaculate Conception talk about Our Blessed Mother.

. . . Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were
identical. Later, however, one became our the cause of our death,
the other the cause of our life.

• St. Ephrem. St. Ephrem died in 373 A.D.

Listen to St. Justin the Martyr:
“We know that He, before all creatures, proceeded from the Father
by His power and will . . .
. . . and by means of the Virgin became man, that by what way the disobedience
arising from the serpent had its beginning, by that way also it might have an undoing.
For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent,
brought forth disobedience and death;
but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy,
when the Angel told her the good tidings,
that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her
and the power of the Highest overshadow her,
and therefore the Holy One that was born of her
was Son of God, answered, 'Be it to me according to Thy word.”

• St. Justin to Tryph. 100. St. Justin died in 165 A.D.

The Blessed Mother is described in the Early Church by Origen as . . .

. . . “worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent,
nor infected with his poisonous breathings.”

• Origen. Origen died in 253 A.D.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 AD):
“Since through Eve, a virgin, came death,
it behooved (became necessary or proper),
that through a Virgin, or rather from a Virgin, should life appear; that,
as the Serpent had deceived the one,
so to the other Gabriel might bring good tidings.”
St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Cat. xii. 15.

St. Fulgentius (468 -533):
“In the wife of the first man, the wickedness of the devil
depraved her seduced mind;
in the mother of the Second Man,
the grace of God preserved both her mind inviolate and her flesh.
(inviolate = completely intact and without corruption)
On her mind, it conferred the most firm faith;
from her flesh it took away lust altogether.
Since then man was in a miserable way condemned for sin, therefore without sin
was in a marvelous way born the God-man.”

• Serm. 2, p. 124. De Dupl. Nativ.
• St. Augustine. (St. Augustine died in 430 A.D.):
  Except, therefore, the Holy Virgin Mary, about whom on account of the honor of our Lord, I will not allow the question (of sin) to be entertained,
  when sins are under discussion, for how do we know what increase of grace was bestowed on her, to enable her to overcome sin in every way . . .
  . . . The divine influence, safeguarding her against all sin . . .
  . . . rested on the very singular and personal relation of Mary to God
  which makes her the bride and vesture of God. Because of this relation,
  God owed it to His Own dignity and holiness
  to safeguard Mary against sin, lest her sin be imputed to Him,
  or lest it should appear that He had a share in it.
  Because of this relation also, all graces necessary to preclude sin are virtually ensured and guaranteed to Mary in and through the principle of this grace.

Mary is called. . . .
“the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption”
by St. Hippolytus.
-St. Hippolytus. St. Hippolytus died in 235 A.D.

St. Ambrose described the Blessed Virgin Mary as . . . “a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin.”

• St. Ambrose. St. Ambrose died in 397 A.D.

Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity…alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body…my Lady most holy,
all-pure, all-immaculate,
all stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate…spotless robe of Him who clothes Himself with light as a garment…flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate. St. Ephraim.

“She (Mary) . . . formed part of the human race, and was of the same essence as we, although she was pure from all taint and immaculate.
St. Severus, Bishop of Antioch. St. Severus died in 538 A.D.

There are other quotes as well.

At this point you have to ask yourself “If this doctrine is true (and it is), will I ever accept it?” A few more quotes are not going to change hearts to this wonderful truth.

But ask God in prayer (frequently and accompanied by fasting) to give you a deeper understanding of His truths - which is rooted in Jesus Himself who IS truth incarnate.

 

[JustaServant]

That would violate her gift of free will and God would never do that. He wants us to come to Him and obey Him with complete, absolute freedom to say no if that is what we choose to do.

Remember, Mary asked only one question “How can this be…” and after the angel’s explanation she said, “Be it done to me according to thy word.” She still had the option of saying no to what God was asking of her but instead chose to do His will …

Every time we make a choice for a “good” or a “bad” we have the same complete absolute freedom to act.

God gives everyone those actual graces us to help us choose the “good.”

God bless…

Bussi

Could be Atemi’s a Calvinist. In that case humans are mere robots programed by God for controlled responses.
And people like him say Catholics ‘go through the motions’.

 

[Pakesh]

And there you have it. The doctrine developed out of the middle ages and was eventually ratified by the leadership you place your trust in. There is no proof from tradition; the apostles never handed it down and the early church never taught anything like it.

You can believe everything your leaders tell you to believe that’s your choice, but the fact is, no evidence or proof exists in support of this doctrine.

And WHERE is YOUR evidence for denying a belief held for 2,000yrs+ by Christians?

 

[JustaServant]

And there you have it. The doctrine developed out of the middle ages and was eventually ratified by the leadership you place your trust in. There is no proof from tradition; the apostles never handed it down **and the early church never taught anything like it. **
You can believe everything your leaders tell you to believe that’s your choice, but the fact is, no evidence or proof exists in support of this doctrine.

staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).

I would suggest investing in a history book before you stamp ‘expert’ on your forehead.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I was under the impression that, regarding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, St. Mary was preserved from original sin, but that she still had free will regarding obeying God. That is to say that it was possible for her to sin but she chose not to. Can someone please verify this for me.

thanks,

LH

The Immaculate Conception is part of the dogma of the Catholic Church. It is infallible and must be accepted by all Catholics. On 12-8-1854 Pope Pius IX made the statement in* ex cathedra*:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. "[Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus
(1854): DS 2803]

bringyou.to/apologetics/ImmaculateConceptionMaryJuniperCarolMariology.htm

You can find more information than you can ever need at the following website:

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Mary is the second Eve. She is the Ark of the Covenant. It is fitting and right that she be sinless and pure her entire life, from conception on. But just because she did not have original sin does not mean that she could not be tempted. Even Jesus was tempted! Mary chose not to sin.

The Immaculate Conception is Truth. It is absolute. It is final.

Hope this helps!

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I did some research on the subject in a book I have: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. It is available from TAN BOOkS AND PUBLISHERS, Inc., and most likely other sources. (maybe a used copy from Amazon.com or in in a library somewhere).

If you can get your hands on a copy, go to pages 199-202 and you will find the statement;

“Mary was conceived without sin,” which is followed by “De Fide,”

'De Fide," means this is what the whole of the Catholic Church has come to believe and are required to believe after centuries of study, contemplation, and vigorous discussions leading to an explanation of the dogma, proof from Holy Writ and Tradition, the historical development since the 12th century A. D.

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX, havng consulted the entire episcopate (all the bishops of the Church), and speaking “Ex Cathedra,” (from the Chair) declared the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to be dogma of the Faith.

A bit of explanation is necessary here. Ex Cathedra, “from the chair of St. Peter,” has a very specific meaning in that all our popes are in a sense are another “Peter” in the same sense as our first pope, Peter who walked with Jesus, was taught by Jesus, and appointed by Jesus as our first pope, (All bishops in the Church are apostles in the same sense as the original 12)

Remember what Jesus said to Peter:

“I give you the keys to the kingdom and he who hears you hears me.”

He also changed peter’s name from Simon to Peter which has always had a very specific meaning similar to God changing Abram to Abraham, etc. This has always had the effect of being appointed to a great task. He only did this for Peter and not the other remaining eleven.

I must add that this is all from my own perspective as a believing Roman Catholic of over 70 years. I have a scientific academic background which means my thinking processes are investigative in nature.

Even so, I must still follow the advice of: St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe,” and vigorously pursue understanding my faith to better my belief in it.

God bless…

Bussi

Very good explanation and above and beyond the call of duty!!

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.