Question to Protestants regarding the Bible

[wmscott]

PART TWO
Sacred Tradition on the other hand is also very clearly spelled out in the Bible. The below passages are provided to help put this issue into perspective. Notice that not every passage specifically says the word “Tradition” (Sacred Tradition), however in reading the passages it is abundantly clear that this is what is being conveyed. My only hope is that you and others reading this are not going to say if it does not specifically say the word “Sacred Tradition” then it is not so. There are many words that I know you believe in that are not specifically stated in the Bible. This is where 2Pet 1:20-21 really comes into play. Because of Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Succession, and the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church, Sacred Scripture can be properly interpreted. This is why the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Now before you get to the scriptural citations below, let me ask you a question. In light of the explanations above regarding the differences between “Sacred Tradition” and “Man-Made Tradition”, and now knowing the differences between the two, If the Bible says to hold fast to tradition (Sacred Tradition), how is it that you can deny, or disobey the very Bible you hold in such high esteem? If you do, then this seems to be a double standard then, and really boils down to “if it is Catholic, it is wrong”.

“Sacred Tradition”

Acts 20;35 - *Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels *In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"

Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

1Cor 11:2 - I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

2Thess 2:15 - Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours

2Thess 3:6 - We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.

1Cor 11:2 - I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

2Thess 2:15 - Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2Thess 3:6 - We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.

Jn 21:25 - There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Mk 13:31 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

2Tim 1:13 - Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

2Tim2:2 - And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

2Pet 1:20-21 - Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God

2Pet 3:15-16 - And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures

1Pet 1:25 - but the word of the Lord remains forever." This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

Rom 10:17 - Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

1Cor 15:1-2 - Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Mk 16:15 - He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.

 

[jblake]

teak421;:

… a book that frankly was not widely available until the printing press was created? Is this reasonable?

Yes.

Do you know how long it takes to hand copy the Bible?

Yes. Now how many times have you copied the Bible by hand using pen and ink?

is it reasonable that our Lord would use a transmission method that only .1 percent of the population could use for the first 15 centuries?

a) Telephone effect;
b) Karaite Judaism preserved both the Torah and Talmud twice after Orhtodox Judaism lost both;

Both of those demonstrate that an oral transmission is guaranteed to be lost, at the first sign of trouble.

There are problems with written texts. Scribner’s errors are found in manuscripts from all ages, and all parts of the world. The virtue of the written text, is that one can check one manuscript against another, to ensure that the content is identical. With oral transmission there is no way to cross check the content. (Indeed, even if the most oral tradition orientated societies, you’ll find local differences in virtually the entire corpus of preserved material.)

jonathon

 

[SimonArizona]

There are thousands of interpretations of Scripture within Catholicism too, but they don’t result in division.

Because Scripture is rich with meaning, and is inspired by God, one thought can have many valid meanings in harmony. The bible believing Christians each have their own interpretation of the bible, these compete with and disagree with the other Christians’ interpretations. But the Church has been handed the one Faith from Our Lord Jesus Christ, there is one Faith, one Spirit teaching the truth. Are these “denominations” teaching that one truth/faith? If so, which one? and how do you know? We know the truth cannot contradict itself. And Jesus prayed that we’d all be one. “Be of one mind”-St. Paul

Nor do all Protestant “denominations” result from differing interpretation of Scripture.

Protestantism as a whole resulted in a different interpretation of Scripture. “The Catholic Church is wrong about Scripture here, here, and here,” Well how do you know that? “because my conscience tells me so.” sound familiar?

But obviously there are many divisions based on differing interpretation of Scripture. The problem for your argument is that these divisions show clearly that Protestants do not simply believe in the teaching authority of their denominations, or new divisions would not keep happening.

But yes they do. Each one believes that the Holy Spirit has annointed them to teach the Scripture. But each one who claims that is teaching something different, something contradictory. Is that the Holy Spirit? is God the author of confusion?

Of course no one really believes purely in the Bible alone. When fundamentalists come onto this forum and start spouting such nonsense, I’ll help you set them straight. Until then, please avoid setting up straw men that distract from the real issue.

If my argument, that Christians believe in the teaching authority of their own denomination, is such a “straw man” you are free to knock it down.

But it took the Church centuries to do this. Authority in the early Church was a slow, cumbersome, consensus-based, and very fuzzy process.

What writings testify to that? Jesus gave the disciples his own authority not only over devils but also to forgive sins, and to speak in his name. to exclude or include brothers.

Perhaps you need to explain what you mean by Scripture being “primary” then. I grant that genuinely apostolic tradition handed down as authoritative teaching would be equal to Scripture. The problem is that in the year 2009 it’s pretty hard to identify any such tradition.

Not if todays Catholic Tradition can be shown to be a mirror image of infant Christian worship. One thing that brought me back to the Church was just that. The early Church is Catholic!

The problem many of us have with the position of your Communion is that it makes it too easy to slip in anything the Magisterium declares as being Apostolic Tradition. That just isn’t a convincing position. It’s sleight of hand.

No, it can be shown to be constant from the very beginnings.

I think it’s quite possible that infant baptism and prayer for the dead and perhaps a few other things (a concept of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, for instance) were handed down orally. We find them soon enough in early Christian writing to make this plausible (and in the case of prayer for the dead, of course we have it in 2 Maccabees, which at the very least proves that it was a Hellenistic Jewish practice).

These things are found in the writings of the early Church and in the Bible.

I’m talking about how it was used in the early Church. I presume that you don’t think there were sola scriptura believers back then?

There wasn’t even a canon back then, nor a printing press, people came to mass to hear the Word of God and to receive him.

 

[teak421]

Yes.

Yes. Now how many times have you copied the Bible by hand using pen and ink?

a) Telephone effect;
b) Karaite Judaism preserved both the Torah and Talmud twice after Orhtodox Judaism lost both;

Both of those demonstrate that an oral transmission is guaranteed to be lost, at the first sign of trouble.

There are problems with written texts. Scribner’s errors are found in manuscripts from all ages, and all parts of the world. The virtue of the written text, is that one can check one manuscript against another, to ensure that the content is identical. With oral transmission there is no way to cross check the content. (Indeed, even if the most oral tradition orientated societies, you’ll find local differences in virtually the entire corpus of preserved material.)

jonathon

You think its reasonable… I do appreciate your opinion, but I need to see your opinion backed up with Scripture. Tell me ANY Scripture that says the Christian Faith is ONLY transmitted in Written form. If you find that, perhaps I would come around in agreement with your viewpoint…

Wouldn’t the vehicle of transmission say its the vehicle of transmission to prove its accuracy and importance? Does the Bible do that?

• michael

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

According to Roman Catholicism, Sacred Tradition and the Bible together provide the foundation of spiritual truth…

zapadela you cut and pasted that whole thing from CARM:

carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/bible-alone-sufficient-spiritual-truth

Did you have any thoughts of your own on it?

God bless you