Questionably valid masses, what to do?

[Kielbasi]

A lot of threads about questionably valid masses that folks have heard.

The question is what is a Catholic to do, if they are at a questionable liturgy, with a questionable consecration.

How certain should a Catholic be that a mass is valid, before they receive the sacrament?

If the mass isn’t valid, the consecration isn’t valid , it isn’t a sacrament at all, and to receive it or worship it ,then is not the sin of idolatry, as it remains a piece of bread?

What would you do, what have you done, if you can’t discern the validity of the mass?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Kielbasi:

A lot of threads about questionably valid masses that folks have heard.

The question is what is a Catholic to do, if they are at a questionable liturgy, with a questionable consecration.

How certain should a Catholic be that a mass is valid, before they receive the sacrament?

If the mass isn’t valid, the consecration isn’t valid , it isn’t a sacrament at all, and to receive it or worship it ,then is not the sin of idolatry, as it remains a piece of bread?

What would you do, what have you done, if you can’t discern the validity of the mass?

There is a very big step between Illicitness and Invalidity. The Sacrament of Holy Communion is set within the Liturgical Rite called the Mass. The entire Mass is not the Sacrament of Holy Communion. Proper Form, Matter and Intent are all that is necessary for the Sacrament. Validity of the Sacrament is still protected even when illicit matter is used. I personally suspect that there are very few Invalid Masses, there may be many more Illicit but still valid Masses.

 

[Siena]

Only 3 things are required to recieve the Eucharist, even if it is in the context of an illicict mass.

1- the bread must be made of wheat, w/o additives (like honey or raisens) and w/o yeast. The wine must be grape wine (not grape juice. or sangria)

2- The words of consecration must not be tampered with. (This is my body/blood)

3-** the priest must intend to do the will of the church** (even if he himself does not believe in the Real Presence- to do the will of the church is enough) - we are not responsible if we have no knowledge of this

If any of these things are wrong- it makes a mass invalid. DO NOT RECIEVE THE FOOD OFFERED AS COMMUNION. TO DO THIS WOULD BE A SACRALIDGE.

Anything else makes a mass illicit, not great, but you can at least validly recieve the Eucharist.

 

[Threepwood]

Siena:

1- the bread must be made of wheat, w/o additives (like honey or raisens) and w/o yeast. The wine must be grape wine (not grape juice. or sangria)

The addition of yeast would be illicit in the context of the Latin Rite mass due to canon law, but it is not invalid matter. The Eastern Catholic church uses bread leavened with yeast and it’s perfectly licit and valid.

 

[Joysong]

Kielbasi:

What would you do, what have you done, if you can’t discern the validity of the mass?

Isn’t this doubt just about the saddest consequence anyone has read concerning our Holy Mass? I have been a member of this forum for slightly over a year now, and this week is the very first time I ever ventured into this section of the forum. It has just been too painful to read all of the nonsense that uninformed Catholics get into their heads about the liturgy, and it becomes a source of disunity and bickering, not to mention a weakening in the faith of others.

I will agree that there are some occasional parishes where not everything is celebrated “properly”, but it would not be the norm, suggesting that everyone react in fear and begin to question whether their mass is valid. Heavens! What are we coming to? Where is our trust in the clergy? This kind of thinking judges them as renegade priests out to destroy the Church, and talking about it publicly spreads misinformation like wildfire. I blame mostly the naysayers who indulge a lot of negative thinking, sometimes born of pride, for they believe they know more than the priest.

Sometimes it’s just a matter of fixation with tradition. If something is changed from what they were accustomed to, it becomes an abuse in their eyes and they set out to warn everyone.

I deeply respect the innocents who come here to learn, so I do not include them in this lament. There are a lot of truly knowledgable people who can put their minds at ease with correct teaching. But I am aware of lengthly controversial threads on holding hands, kneeling, the rite of peace, and the like, that make me wonder if we are all One Body united in Christ? These lesser elements do not invalidate the entire liturgy if one of them is not used correctly.

In that matter, we strive to work together to bring our best to liturgy and assume a positive attitude that is not out to attack one another over a jot or tittle being out of place.

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/signs/amen.png

 

[thistle]

Siena:

Only 3 things are required to recieve the Eucharist, even if it is in the context of an illicict mass.

1- the bread must be made of wheat, w/o additives (like honey or raisens) and w/o yeast. The wine must be grape wine (not grape juice. or sangria)

2- The words of consecration must not be tampered with. (This is my body/blood)

3-** the priest must intend to do the will of the church** (even if he himself does not believe in the Real Presence- to do the will of the church is enough) - we are not responsible if we have no knowledge of this

If any of these things are wrong- it makes a mass invalid. DO NOT RECIEVE THE FOOD OFFERED AS COMMUNION. TO DO THIS WOULD BE A SACRALIDGE.

Anything else makes a mass illicit, not great, but you can at least validly recieve the Eucharist.

That’s fine but how could anyone in the congregation know what the bread is made of and what the intention of the priest is?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Siena:

Only 3 things are required to recieve the Eucharist, even if it is in the context of an illicict mass.

1- the bread must be made of wheat, w/o additives (like honey or raisens) and w/o yeast. The wine must be grape wine (not grape juice. or sangria)

2- The words of consecration must not be tampered with. (This is my body/blood)

3-** the priest must intend to do the will of the church** (even if he himself does not believe in the Real Presence- to do the will of the church is enough) - we are not responsible if we have no knowledge of this

If any of these things are wrong- it makes a mass invalid. DO NOT RECIEVE THE FOOD OFFERED AS COMMUNION. TO DO THIS WOULD BE A SACRALIDGE.

Anything else makes a mass illicit, not great, but you can at least validly recieve the Eucharist.

1- the bread must be made of wheat and be edable.
The wine must be grape wine.

" w/o additives (like honey or raisens) and w/o yeast. (not grape juice. or sangria)" Additives make it illicit and any grape wine will consecrate but may also be illicit.

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Thistle,

That’s fine but how could anyone in the congregation know what the bread is made of and what the intention of the priest is?

It is not given to us by God to read another’s heart or intention, is it? He alone knows.

Our parish obtains their hosts from the Carmelite sisters who make them for the diocese and use the income to support themselves. Now isn’t it the height of ignorance to question the ingredients coming from a source such as this? We could drive ourselves nuts questioning everything to death, believing all kinds of evil lurks behind our sacred liturgy, if we wanted to live in turnoil and doubt, huh? I trust Jesus’s statement that “the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.”

Peace,
Carole

 

[thistle]

Joysong:

Hello, Thistle,

It is not given to us by God to read another’s heart or intention, is it? He alone knows.

Our parish obtains their hosts from the Carmelite sisters who make them for the diocese and use the income to support themselves. Now isn’t it the height of ignorance to question the ingredients coming from a source such as this? We could drive ourselves nuts questioning everything to death, believing all kinds of evil lurks behind our sacred liturgy, if we wanted to live in turnoil and doubt, huh? I trust Jesus’s statement that “the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.”

Peace,
Carole

I think you are beating me up for no reason. I’m not questioning the ingredients of the host. Please read my comments carefully. My comment was directed at the 3 points made by Siena. He/She said if any of these are wrong the Mass is invalid and you should not receive the food. I was just trying say how can anyone in the Church know in advance of receiving Communion that one or more of these points are wrong! They can’t so why would they refuse to receive Communion?

 

[Joysong]

Hi Thistle,

Re: They can’t so why would they refuse to receive Communion?

Exactly!

I’m so sorry it came across to you that I was picking at your post. Actually I was agreeing with you, that nobody can know what is in the host, or in the intention of the priest as he celebrates. I merely supplied the info that the nuns make the communion wafers, just in case anyone else was reading.

Carole

 

[thistle]

Joysong:

Hi Thistle,

Re: They can’t so why would they refuse to receive Communion?

Exactly!

I’m so sorry it came across to you that I was picking at your post. Actually I was agreeing with you, that nobody can know what is in the host, or in the intention of the priest as he celebrates. I merely supplied the info that the nuns make the communion wafers, just in case anyone else was reading.

Carole

Okay dokay so it might be in fact I misunderstood your comments and not the other way round. Anyway now I know we’re both on the same wavelength.
Sorry if I offended you
God Bless
thistle

 

[Siena]

(1st- my apologies for getting wrong the difference between illicit and invalid bread and wine.)

Very true, while you cannot know the “will” of the priest, and are therefore not responsible for his intention, I couln’t imagine staying at a mass where it was publically announced by the priest that this is not Jesus, but only a symbol.

As for the bread and wine, if the priest tried to consecrate milk and a chocolate chip cookie, you would know it.

It is only a situation that you are AWARE of that you are required to act upon.

-My intention was to inform the OP about the BARE MINIMUM that is required for a valid consecration, in order to avoid scrupulosity about the validity of the Eucharist on the part of the OP.

Example- I was actually at a mass where the priest forgot to consecrate the wine, and consecrated the bread twice. This was very obvious, and no obvious move ws made to correct the situation. I did not go up to communion that day, to be on the safe side.)