Questioning Mary

[tassitus]

… For by knowedge the wise are humble knowing they are fools and by knowedge men are driven mad!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm…

 

[whosebob]

To be honest? No. I don’t think I would feel comfortable with cultivating a relationship with Mary or other deceased saints. I also wouldn’t feel right praying to Mary, even with the understanding that this is simply intercessory prayer.

JMJ + OBT​

Please allow me to pose a question which I understand will seem, at this time (but perhaps not too much longer, thanks to the BVM), to be purely theoretical from your POV. What if a personal relationship with Mary (and/or other Saints) and intercessory prayer involving the Saints could make your personal relationship with Jesus stronger than it has ever been before, and in no way detract from the honor and glory that is to be given to God alone? Would that be reason enough attempt those things?

The man in this video would tell you that what he does for love of Jesus would not be possible without the heavenly aid of Mary and his personal relationship with her: Called By God.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

To be honest? No. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but I haven’t considered “cultivating a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary or with another canonized saint.” I would see value in learning about the great saints, Mary included, because they are good Christian role models. However, rightfully or wrongfully, I don’t think I would feel comfortable with cultivating a relationship with Mary or other deceased saints. I also wouldn’t feel right praying to Mary, even with the understanding that this is simply intercessory prayer.

I appreciate your charitable post and can understand your reluctance. Since you have a personal relationship with Jesus, might I suggest that you pray about the matter. Ask Him to reveal the truth about the Blessed Virgin to you. If nothing happens as a result of your prayer, you’ll keep on trucking as you have been. No harm done, so to speak. However, you may be in for the surprise of a lifetime if Jesus introduces you to His mother. I have known many people who have had miraculous responses to prayers just asking to know the truth about Mary.

I have been in the position that you seem to be in. At one time I had a personal relationship with Jesus and none whatsoever with the Blessed Virgin. Now I have a relationship with her as well, though I am not as devoted as many Catholics. I can tell you that just the little bit I have done to cultivate my relationship with Mary has benefitted my relationship with Jesus in a way that I could never have imagined. This is in no way implying that your relationship is somehow deficient or inferior to my own. I am only stating that my relationship with Him has deepened tremendously since coming to know the Blessed Virgin.

I just had a silly thought. I am reminded of the children’s book “Green Eggs and Ham”. I am playing the part of Sam-I-Am… “you don’t like her so you say, try her, try her and you may, I say”… I think it is my bedtime now… this isn’t going to seem as funny in the morning but right now I’m really laughing at myself…

Seriously, I don’t want to offend by “pushing” Mary at you, so take it as a well-intentioned suggestion.

 

[water]

You are not worthy to be a reproach to me.

I felt sorry either for your joking or for your ignorance.

 

[rr1213]

Whosebob and Prayer Warrier,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts and suggestions. I will need to think and pray about them.

rr1213

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Whosebob and Prayer Warrier,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts and suggestions. I will need to think and pray about them.

rr1213

You are very welcome!

 

[whosebob]

Whosebob and Prayer Warrier, Thanks for your thoughtful posts and suggestions. I will need to think and pray about them.

JMJ + OBT​

rr1213, you are most welcome. I will keep you in my prayers; please pray for me.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Church_Militant]

That has not been my understanding from what I’ve read. I would be quite interested in hearing from any Catholics who would care to comment on whether it is dogmatically required by the Catholic Church to believe that Mary lived her life without any sin. According to the CCC:

493
The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia) and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature."138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

(Emphasis added).

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm
I stand corrected. Thanks for that!

I believe this, I just (somehow) hadn’t found that particular statement in the Catechism.

My own thinking of it is that the Blessed Virgin had the ultimate personal relationship with Our Lord; (to use a characteristically Protestant phrase) being His mother from birth and having confessed her faith in Him from the moment of her fiat. I mean…she lived her every day with Him for all those 33 years. That’s pretty tight. If she didn’t know how to live a faithful life, who would? :ehh:

Thanks for finding that and sharing it with me.
Pax tecum,

 

[rr1213]

I stand corrected. Thanks for that!

I believe this, I just (somehow) hadn’t found that particular statement in the Catechism.

My own thinking of it is that the Blessed Virgin had the ultimate personal relationship with Our Lord; (to use a characteristically Protestant phrase) being His mother from birth and having confessed her faith in Him from the moment of her fiat. I mean…she lived her every day with Him for all those 33 years. That’s pretty tight. If she didn’t know how to live a faithful life, who would? :ehh:

Thanks for finding that and sharing it with me.
Pax tecum,

No problem. To tell the truth, I would have been happy to stand corrected in my understanding of the Catholic teaching on this issue. No offense intended, but the sinless nature of Mary is probably the biggest single objection I have to Catholic teaching. So, if this were not actually required belief for a faithful Catholic, I’d have been interested in hearing that…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

No problem. To tell the truth, I would have been happy to stand corrected in my understanding of the Catholic teaching on this issue. No offense intended, but the sinless nature of Mary is probably the biggest single objection I have to Catholic teaching. So, if this were not actually required belief for a faithful Catholic, I’d have been interested in hearing that…

I would venture to guess you also object strongly to the authority of the Church as well. For if you accept the authority of the Church as truly “God-given” then the teachings on Mary would not be as much of a problem.

It took a long time, but when I accepted that the Church had been given the authority of Christ (keys to the kingdom), then I had somewhat of a paradigm shift. I began to believe that if I disagree with a doctrine that it is due to my own lack of understanding rather than the Church teaching wrongly. I think this was a good lesson in humility. This is not to say that questioning things is not a good thing. It is good to find out why the Church teaches each and every doctrine. As I began to ‘trust’ that the Church is correct in its teaching I looked at scripture in a whole new light. There are nuances there that slip right by you when you don’t have the Church tapping you on the shoulder saying “take a look at this verse, this is one reason we believe in such and such”

So, when working through my questions of Mary’s sinlessness, let’s just say God figuratively smacked me up side the head with the Old Testament! And all the little pieces fell together for me. However, it might not have fit together had I not accepted that the Catholic Church was THE one Church that Jesus founded.

Of course, the authority of the Church is a subject for another thread (there are probably only 100 threads on that subject!). But I believe that it ties directly in with the acceptence of Marian Doctrine.

On a side note, I’ll tell you that my biggest objection was artificial birth control for married couples. It took me a looong time to understand the scriptural background for that teaching. But because I so strongly believed in the Church, and I believed the Church was correct on the other major issues (Apostolic Succession, all the Sacraments, etc), I had to take it on faith that the Church was right about the whole birth control issue. Sure enough, after about 5 years of struggling with the issue, I came to understand it.

 

[peary]

This could be part of the problem, I think. This topic wasn’t covered as well as it should have been during RCIA, in my opinion. We are spending 2 weeks each on the sacraments and I’m guessing we might go into the IC and similar topics more before the Easter Vigil but we have lost a lot of people out of RCIA for various reasons and I wonder if it was because of things concerning Mary and prayer, and things like that. I don’t think she is going to leave b/c she is in it with her boyfriend and they are getting married so I think she will just have some problems with certian doctrines.

Also,
thanks for your responses. They are very helpful and I think maybe she will understand a little better. Just keep her and the rest of our RCIA in your prayers! Thanks again!

-Kristy

**I don’t think she may be ready for an understanding of Mary, so, in my opinion, it is something that the Holy Spirit needs to nudge her toward an understanding. In the meantime, she should focus on Christ. **

 

[TMC]

Let me say right from the start, less I be misunderstood, that I do not agree with most of JS’ statements, especially where he claims to be an Apostle (they are all dead and in heaven, JS) and a prophet. Or the ramblings that resemble God’s rejoinder to Job. Or the threats, etc.

However, as to Mary, based on Scripture, most Protestants do believe that Jesus had siblings who were also the children of Mary and Joseph. Again, based on Scripture, Protestants also believe that Mary, like the rest of us, was a sinner. One of the greatest of the saints, yes, but still a sinner. The way that JS has described these beliefs borders on the vulgar, especially when said among devout Catholics. Still, I’d say that most Protestants (including myself) agree in substance. I understand the Catholic position on these matters, but do not personally find it to be persuasive.

Also, you are wrong that Protestants’ hangup about Mary is based in envy and pride. The Protestant approach to Mary --which is basically to ignore Mary except for Christmas time --is a reaction to the approach taken by Catholics. Catholics, in general, are very devoted to Mary. In the eyes of Protestants, this devotion becomes extreme and takes away from a proper devotion to Christ. Catholics have a different viewpoint, believing that devotion to Mary perfects their devotion to Christ. My hunch is that the appropriate approach lies somewhere between the Protestant and Catholic positions, but probably a bit closer to the Catholic than the Protestant.

I agree with much of what you have to say, except that it seems you are implying that the Protestant belief that although Mary was a very good and holy person, she was still a sinner is connected to the Protestant believe Mary had additional children with Joseph. The Catholic belief in Perpetual Virginity is not a necessary result of the Catholic belief that Mary did not sin. There would have been nothing sinful about Mary and Joseph having sex.

Back to the point of the thread, I know a number of Catholics that are bothered to varying degrees by what they perceive as excess devotion to Mary. Marian devotion is not required of Catholics, you can be a good Catholic and not do any ‘extra’ Marian things beyond what is in the Mass and the required feast days. It doesn’t mean (or doesn’t have to mean) that one rejects the Marian teachings. The Marian teachings do not effect the way most Catholics go about their lives and faith.

 

[Roy5]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

  Just one quick point. St. Paul wrote most of the books in the New Testament - letters to the early churches that he helped establish.

   Guess what? In all of his theology and instructions in other areas of spiritual life, he never once mentions Mary. That suggests to me that he did not see her as a person to occupy the central position (veneration, adulation) that she occupies in Roman Catholicism today. 

    Doesn't that tell us something?

 

[Refugium]

Hello all!

There is a girl in my RCIA class that is having a big problem with the Catholic church’s view of Mary. We have had the Sisters come and talk about Mary and the Church’s view has come up numerous times but she still has a big problem with it. In her words, she thinks that people pray “to” Mary and that Catholics worship her. I know that this isn’t true. We venerate Mary, not worship her and we ask for her intercession just like we do the saints. How can I convey this to her in a better way for her to understand it??? Thanks for all your help!

Why is she in RCIA? Seriously, I never understand why people want to convert to Catholicism but are not willing to accept all that the Church teaches.