Questions about The Bible and women's rights

[coolcatholicguy]

8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved** through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:8-15

I have seen Bible verses like this that basically say that women shouldn’t be doing, well, a lot of what they do today. In my school, s braid their hair all the time. I also see s and women reading Bible verses at Mass and serving Communion a lot. I’m trying to understand why The Bible seems to be condemning this. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks for the answers. Have a blessed day.
Emmett**

 

[Katrina5]

8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved** through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:8-15

I have seen Bible verses like this that basically say that women shouldn’t be doing, well, a lot of what they do today. In my school, s braid their hair all the time. I also see s and women reading Bible verses at Mass and serving Communion a lot. I’m trying to understand why The Bible seems to be condemning this. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks for the answers. Have a blessed day.
Emmett**

This came up yesterday in our Women’s Bible Group. There was not much said, except “We get blamed for everything,” “I haven’t braided my hair since I was a child,” and “I’ve never been through childbirth, and it’s too late, so where does that leave me?”

You are a guy, so please just try to put yourself in the women’s shoes and see how it would feel to have this read to you.

We set the Bible aside and went on with our business of planning some service projects, because what else can be said? It hurts, though. It’s being shamed for who we are, and elevating males just for being male.

It makes me feel like I’m not a whole person, not good enough, and demoralized.

 

[suissemissed]

Hi Emmett,

This is something I’ve studied a bit (though please note, only a bit! )… First of all, St. Paul was addressing a particular Christian community that was having problems with maintaining order, both in church and out. In 1 Timothy 2:8-15, these women were not simply “teaching” (i.e., reading from the Scriptures, or simply repeating what the Church teaches). No, they were “teaching and having authority”. They were making judgments, both about Church teachings and how other Christians (men included) were living their lives. Only the clergy are authorized to teach and judge “authoritatively” in this manner, and even then, only the direct successors to the Apostles (the Magisterium, which is the pope with all the bishops) can define doctrine. And of course, women may not be ordained as clergy.

In the other point you make (about modesty), you are nearly correct. Women (and this goes for men too) should not dress in such a way as to intentionally cause the other sex to lust after them. This is a huge problem nowadays, one which most Christians don’t even realize. When women go around with hardly any clothes on, they are being immodest, and are sinning. We have to be careful though… just because a woman is wearing beads or has braided hair, that doesn’t mean she’s necessarily being immodest. Paul was speaking in generalities… back then, standards of dress were different. It’s a cultural thing. What may be appropriate in one culture might not be in another. Immodesty can cross cultural barriers (i.e., dressing in skimpy clothes in one place is as bad as doing it in another), but “braided hair” may not always be inappropriate - it depends on where you are. To sum up Paul’s teachings, if you do one of the following, you sin:

1. Dress so as to significantly excite the opposite sex causing them to lust easily,
2. Dress in a way that is considered “inappropriate” by one’s cultural standards. Again, like I said in one of your other posts on swearing, Christians are called to be the “salt of the earth.” Dressing inappropriately, even if it’s modest, still reflects a bad witness for our faith. Seriously… does wearing dozens of body piercings all over your face while sporting gangster-type clothes make you look like a child of God?

Hope all this helps to answer your questions

P.S. – Look at how the Virgin Mary dressed, in contrast to how women dress today. Part of this is culture, of course… but there’s still something to it. I can only imagine our Lady’s horror when she looks at her spiritual daughters dressing in ridiculously revealing clothes (like bikinis and such).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am a woman. I don’t feel marginalized. Women and men are different. The fact that in todays society women have different opportunities simply reflects societal change in degree.

Even in the ‘olden days’ there were always some women who had power–real power, according to our ‘current’ understanding. There were always some women who were rulers (in their own right), there were women who had plenty of money, women who had important jobs, women who lived happy powerful lives.

There were also plenty of women who didn’t have ‘power’ but were perfectly happy. (there are some today as well.)

And there were, as always, women who felt short changed. And sometimes, they were short changed. Of course, men have been 'short changed ’ as well.

What did you want St. Paul to say? That women were to be treated ‘equally’? He thought that, in Christian terms, they were. Women and men were (and are) equal in soul. But St. Paul would not have seen women as needing to be ‘interchangeable’ in role with men in all roles. . .in fact, that is something we have only recently ‘seen’ and we still do not even know if it is ‘right’.

Ask a lot of us who had to go out, work 10 hour days at boring, thankless jobs, come home and be single parents because our husbands decided to ‘trade us in’ since they wanted ‘younger models’ who were more ‘fun’, if we REALLY think that we are better off than most women throughout history in that we feel more ‘fulfilled’ as women.

Most of us wind up being less than the mothers and wives that we want to be, and less than the ‘employees’ we are often forced to be (or even that we might freely want to be) because we have to spread ourselves too thin. Meanwhile, men are being less than the fathers and husbands that they want to be, mocked and insulted, never quite measuring up and always ‘blamed’ for being awful repressive MEN.

Men and women now are adversarial and contentious in spheres ranging from the family to the workplace, instead of being helps and companions for each other.

Yet you know what? for some, as it has always been, the current situation will ‘give them’ what they want. Or they’ll convince themselves that it’s what they want.

I won’t ‘presume’ that you’ll feel as I do. . .but please don’t presume that all women feel the same way you do either.

 

[suissemissed]

This came up yesterday in our Women’s Bible Group. There was not much said, except “We get blamed for everything,” “I haven’t braided my hair since I was a child,” and “I’ve never been through childbirth, and it’s too late, so where does that leave me?”

You are a guy, so please just try to put yourself in the women’s shoes and see how it would feel to have this read to you.

We set the Bible aside and went on with our business of planning some service projects, because what else can be said? It hurts, though. It’s being shamed for who we are, and elevating males just for being male.

It makes me feel like I’m not a whole person, not good enough, and demoralized.

Gosh, I can see how you feel Mainly because there was probably NO explanation at all of what Paul meant in your Bible study… Scripture makes it very clear that with God, men and women are EQUAL. Both are just as precious in His sight, and He loves them without favoritism. However, as Tantum said, “equal” does not mean “interchangeable.” Men have different “roles” in life than women do. It is inappropriate for women to do some things that men do, just like it’s inappropriate for men to do some things that women do.

Paul was speaking to women who were causing serious problems, so he resorted to harsh language (“for it was woman who sinned first”) to silence them and restore order. Like I said to Emmett, standards of dress vary from one culture and time period to another. The only thing that matters is: Are we dressing immodestly? This question applies to both men and women, though often more so to women (this shouldn’t be an insult - women are simply a lot better looking than men!). Regardless of culture, immodesty is to be avoided. And “braided hair” isn’t always immodest.

 

[Katrina5]

Suissemissed, Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I don’t know where God (the creator) said we are equal. I know Jesus seemed to treat women with more respect and dignity and gave women “equal time” in his parables and such.

The group yesterday is our Bible Study group and usually we would have gotten into a big (I’m sure) discussion about this, but we had a list of projects to handle, so we worked on that.

I’m a believer in biology is destiny, and I wouldn’t want to be a man for anything in the world. I guess “Equal but different” is too politically incorrect.

This stresses me out, but I’m due to be at Eucharistic Adoration in about an hour, so Jesus will get an earful…of my silent tears and meditation.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Men are not doing their jobs by volunteering at Mass.
Not enough altar boys or men; Not enough helping with Communion, etc.
Your Priest can’t do everything by himself.
Let’s get more men volunteering on Saturday evening and Sunday morning Masses.
Contact your Parish Priest to volunteer.

Not enough Men leading their families to God.
A family that prays together, stays together.

 

[suissemissed]

Suissemissed, Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I don’t know where God (the creator) said we are equal. I know Jesus seemed to treat women with more respect and dignity and gave women “equal time” in his parables and such.

The group yesterday is our Bible Study group and usually we would have gotten into a big (I’m sure) discussion about this, but we had a list of projects to handle, so we worked on that.

I’m a believer in biology is destiny, and I wouldn’t want to be a man for anything in the world. I guess “Equal but different” is too politically incorrect.

This stresses me out, but I’m due to be at Eucharistic Adoration in about an hour, so Jesus will get an earful…of my silent tears and meditation.

You’re welcome Galatians 3:28 is one such verse where Paul (yes, Paul, the same Apostle!) talks about us all being equal in Christ. (And remember, Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so he speaks the very Word of God the Creator.) I can see what you mean about not wanting to be a man for anything in the world, haha We both have our advantages and disadvantages…

Anyways, I forgot to mention something about Paul’s statements concerning women: Few people realize this, but Paul was actually improving the rights and treatment of women! In his culture and time period, women were not expected to learn… at all. But Paul said that women “should learn in quietness and full submission.” He was telling the men of his church that their wives were not objects. They had rights as well. This would have actually scandalized a lot of men back then, who thought women were just there to serve them (read what I say about Ephesians below).

In other passages, Paul says slaves and servants should be treated kindly, something that also would have scandalized people back in his day. Nowadays, people are still scandalized when they read those verses, though for a different reason… they think that Paul supported slavery. The answer of course is no, he didn’t! He was actually trying to increase the rights of slaves… without starting a complete revolution, that is. If Paul came right out and said, “No slaves!” then no one would have listened to him. And to Paul, preaching the gospel and freeing people from the slavery of sin was more important than freeing them from earthly slavery.

Anyways, now for Ephesians. So many “Christian” men love to quote this passage:

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”

Of course, they completely forget about the very next passage:

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.”

Men are to love their wives “just as Christ loved the church”. And what did Christ do for the Church? He suffered and died for it!!! He gave His all for it. Men should not treat women as “inferior” (which of course they are not). Instead, they should elevate them above everything else except God Himself. They should be willing to do anything, suffer anything, for them. It should be the husband who serves and cares for the wife, not the other way around.

Enjoy your time with Jesus at Adoration! I wish I could be there.

 

[Katrina5]

I have to thank you, suisse, because you are so good at explaining this.
I just wrote to someone on another topic about all the times that this subject and the related “stress” have come up before and people on CAF have helped me through.

I know it isn’t the main purpose for CAF, but it helps to have the support and insight.

I was very anxious during my hour before Jesus, but by the end, I was fine. Prayer changes everything. I looked from the Eucharist to the crucified Christ, back and forth, and I always know I am in the right place.

I prayed for all the posters on here. Thank you again. There are a couple of other women posters who understand where I’m coming from, no judgement.

God bless you.

 

[nordskoven]

In the approved apparition of the “Miraculous Medal” Our Lady was seen wearing simple braids tied with lace peeking out from her veil. This is a far cry from the elaborate braided coils inter-wrapped with gems of Paul’s anguish. This isn’t a fashion show, ladies!

Woman was given a mandate separate from Adam’s stewardship, and that is her and her seed through her (that’s Jesus and us per John’s Apocalypse, Ch. 12) are to be at war with the Father of Lies and Murder and his seed. Teaching authority was explicitly given to Adam. That will never change. And it is a terrible responsibility for to those whom much is given, much is expected; men have more to lose if they fail and will be judged accordingly.

The Immaculate Conception in her appearance memorialized on the Miraculous Medal is seen crushing the Old Serpent wrapped around the northern part of the globe. How poignant a depiction of the demonic oppression of Russia with Our Lady of the Rosary in her Fatima, Portugal, appearances pledging to convert Russia as the “only” means to a period of peace when and if the Bishops, led by Peter, consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. The terrible responsibility for the authority of the Bishops is hinted at by Christ Who told Sister Lucia His ministers risk the fate of the King of France if they delay the consecration. It has not been done to date as requested…

"Pray the daily Rosary for peace." --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal