Questions and discussion on Eastern Catholicism Forum

[Nyarlathotep]

inb4 404

Mods, if you’re listening (and I suspect you are), perhaps a “sticky” is in order?

(1) Proselytizing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is clearly out of bounds. But I imagine some believe that “proselytizing” Eastern theology over Western theology is fair game. So, which fora are open for arguing (i.e., not “proselytizing”) theology – East. Cath. or Non. Cath.? (or apologetics, even?)

(2) I agree that idle rants, like the “icons” vs. “statues” threads are stupid, or trolling / baiting threads like “I heard that the Eastern Church [insert something patently ridiculous]… what do you guys think”?

(3) Maybe we should all make a concerted effort to avoid driving out those with whom we do not immediately find common ground.

– N.

 

[malphono]

(1) Proselytizing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is clearly out of bounds. But I imagine some believe that “proselytizing” Eastern theology over Western theology is fair game. So, which fora are open for arguing (i.e., not “proselytizing”) theology – East. Cath. or Non. Cath.? (or apologetics, even?)

I generally do not frequent Apologetics and never Non-Catholic Religions (I’ve no patience to sift through it to find one thread out of 100 that might be of interest), but there have been many threads in this forum where that has happened, and as long as they remain civil, they seem never to have been problems.

(2) I agree that idle rants, like the “icons” vs. “statues” threads are stupid, or trolling / baiting threads like “I heard that the Eastern Church [insert something patently ridiculous]… what do you guys think”?

Sometimes (not always by a longshot!) it would seem that such threads are not exactly trolling or baiting, but come more from ignorance on the part of the thread-starter than anything else. In any case, I don’t believe in taking the position that “if it’s Eastern, it’s better” and more than I can deal with those who say the same about the West. The Church includes East (not only Byzantine) and West (not only Roman), and I would think it best to find a way to co-exist. Exclusivism of one and denigration of the other, on either side (or even within a side) just doesn’t seem the way to go.

(3) Maybe we should all make a concerted effort to avoid driving out those with whom we do not immediately find common ground.

Yes.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

I will respond to this thread later today.

Members (which I will explicitly state includes Catholics and Non-Catholics from east or west) may charitably post to this thread on the following topics:

-Suggestions for improving CAF or the EC forum, including what you would like from the forum
-General issues that have been encountered when posting to CAF or the EC forum
-On-topic general discussion about CAF or the EC forum
-Non-polemic information
-Questions for me which are of a public interest
-Feedback for me or for the board which is of a public interest

Members may write me directly about the following topics:
-Questions or concerns about moderator decisions
-Specific issues that have been encountered when posting to CAF or the EC forum
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-Anything else of concern to you

Members may not use this thread for the following topics:
-Recommend board swarms
-Cull a list of people to recommend a board swarm to over PM
-Speculate on the account status of others
-Post uncharitably
-Proselytize

They seem like easy guidelines to me. I hope they allow a fruitful discussion to develop.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator

 

[Ignatius]

(1) Proselytizing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is clearly out of bounds. But I imagine some believe that “proselytizing” Eastern theology over Western theology is fair game. So, which fora are open for arguing (i.e., not “proselytizing”) theology – East. Cath. or Non. Cath.? (or apologetics, even?)

There should be none of this. The Eastern Catholic Churches Sui Juris actually predate the Latins and are fully Catholic in every regard.

(2) I agree that idle rants, like the “icons” vs. “statues” threads are stupid, or trolling / baiting threads like “I heard that the Eastern Church [insert something patently ridiculous]… what do you guys think”?

(3) Maybe we should all make a concerted effort to avoid driving out those with whom we do not immediately find common ground.

This type of ignorance should not be tolerated. Romans, given their current set of problems, have no room to and should not be critizing Eastern Catholics in any way.

 

[malphono]

There should be none of this. The Eastern Catholic Churches Sui Juris actually predate the Latins and are fully Catholic in every regard.

Well, at least the traditions and theology do.

This type of ignorance should not be tolerated. Romans, given their current set of problems, have no room to and should not be critizing Eastern Catholics in any way.

I made a few remarks about what turns out to be this same issue this in another [thread=429764]thread[/thread] a few weeks ago. At the risk of accusations of egocentrism, I’ll repeat a couple of the more applicable things here:

That said, I don’t disagree with the above quote in principle, but at the same time I have to say one thing: being “illumined by the light of the East as well as that of the West” can be taken as a two-edged sword. By that I mean the statement could easily be reversed, and if that happens voilà!, we’re back to the now-discredited idea of the “superiority of the Roman Church” and all that went with it.

I find it a losing battle to try to hammer things to a Western audience, particularly those who consider themselves “traditional.” Of course we have an obligation to educate, but it seems to me that it has to be done in context, and the thread in the other forum is a case in point. Making a general comparison between Western and Eastern practice is fine, but telling people that a particular Eastern practice is the best thing since sliced bread will cause cause problems. To me it hearkens to exactly the idea of touting one as “superior” to the other. As I said, it’s a two-edged sword.

The bulk of the “regulars” in the other forum are well-intentioned (there are some who are surprisingly knowledgeable about Eastern and Oriental praxis), but there are those who are simply ignorant of even the existence of the Eastern and Oriental Churches. That’s not, of course, how it should be, and I think we can make a difference in that regard. I’m sure you’ve heard the old cliche “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink” yet even if it were a camel, when he gets thirsty enough, he will drink.

I recall having a discussion with a Roman Rite priest friend of mine (who is quite orthodox and even taught himself the EF) once about matters liturgical (Eastern & Western) and he said “why is it that you guys know so much about us and we know so little about you?” As I see things, the answer is because the Roman Church is (as one of our posters once remarked in this forum) the elephant in the room. We have to know about it lest we be crushed, whether deliberately or accidentally.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

inb4 404

Mods, if you’re listening (and I suspect you are), perhaps a “sticky” is in order?

(1) Proselytizing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is clearly out of bounds. But I imagine some believe that “proselytizing” Eastern theology over Western theology is fair game. So, which fora are open for arguing (i.e., not “proselytizing”) theology – East. Cath. or Non. Cath.? (or apologetics, even?)

Relevant stickies:
CAF Statement of Purpose
EC Forum Statement of Purpose
Forum Rules
Banned Topics List
Choosing Your Forum Wisely
Charity

We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. **Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the liturgy, theology, spirituality, discipline, culture, and history of Eastern, Oriental, and Western Catholicism on this forum. **However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

Since many threads can fit under a variety of forums (e.g., a thread about priests could legitimately be placed in Church News, Moral Theology, Apologetics, Non-Catholic Religions, Eastern Catholicism, Spirituality, or Liturgy & Sacraments, depending on the context), if a thread could legitimately be placed within a particular forum, it will remain in its original forum. If it obviously belongs somewhere else (e.g., a priest thread is specifically about a current news issue), then it may be moved to a more appropriate forum.

Here are some relevant examples:

**Topic: **What do the Orthodox say about Fatima?
**Proper Location: **Non-Catholic Religions
**Why: **The topic is directed to non-Catholics and is specifically about their views
**How the conversation is likely to develop based on forum location: **The Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, and Roman Catholic posters will charitably explain and defend their positions. Posters of other religions might ask questions to clarify positions which the Orthodox and Catholics might agree or disagree on. If sufficiently off-topic, new threads will be started to address side issues in the Apologetics, Spirituality, Eastern Catholicism, or Non-Catholic Religions forums.

**Topic: **What do the Catholic and Orthodox Churches disagree on?
**Proper Location: **Apologetics, Non-Catholic Religions, or Eastern Catholicism
Why: It is relevant to each of those forums and the placement would determine the poster’s intended general audience.
**How the conversation is likely to develop based on forum location: **
In Apologetics, a Roman Catholic defense of the faith with apologetic material about the differences.
In Non-Catholic Religions, a discussion or debate between Orthodox and Catholic participants on historical issues.
In Eastern Catholicism, a discussion or debate between eastern and western participants on theological issues and how those affect the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Topic: How is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom different from the Roman Catholic Mass?
Proper Location: Liturgy & Sacraments, Traditional Catholicism, Eastern Catholicism, or Non-Catholic Religions
Why: It is relevant to each of those forums and the placement would determine the poster’s intended general audience.
**How the conversation is likely to develop based on forum location: **
In L&S, a line by line comparison of the rubrics directed mainly focusing on the Mass with tangents into theological reasons for particular rubrics.
In Traditional Catholicism, a discussion on how the extraordinary and the ordinary forms of the Mass compare and contrast with the Divine Liturgy, mainly focusing on greater symbolism in the older Mass ritual.
In Eastern Catholicism, a theological and historical explanation of how they developed and how and why they are the way they are, focused on the topic of the liturgies and not on participation or exclusion of a particular group.
In Non-Catholic Religions, a theological and historical explanation of how they developed and how and why they are the way they are, focused on finding points of commonality or debating theological differences as evidenced through the liturgies of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Topic: Pope Benedict signs historic union with Pope Shenouda
**Proper Location: **Eastern Catholicism, Catholic News, Non-Catholic Religions, or Apologetics
Why: It is relevant to each of those forums and the placement would determine the poster’s intended general audience.
**How the conversation is likely to develop based on forum location:
**In Eastern Catholicism, discussion of the union and the implications of it from the perspective primarily of Eastern Catholics.
In Catholic News, discussion of the union and the implications of it primarily for the Roman Catholic Church.
Non-Catholic Religions, discussion of the union and the implications of it and of the history of the Coptic Church.
In Apologetics, specific apologetic questions about how the union will affect Roman Catholic theological teachings.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

quote=Nyarlathotep I agree that idle rants, like the “icons” vs. “statues” threads are stupid, or trolling / baiting threads like “I heard that the Eastern Church [insert something patently ridiculous]
… what do you guys think”?
[/quote]

I have long said that I don’t care if a poster wants to argue that the flying spaghetti monster is God. I believe topics are self-selecting so that people not wanting to talk about them will ignore threads that aren’t of interest, that the truth will prevail when presented charitably, and that it isn’t my job to tell posters what they may and may not find interesting. I am only here to facilitate the conversation by equally applying the forum rules to all posters. I ask posters to bring questions or concerns to me so that I have the ability to address them. If someone’s baiting or trolling, let me know by clicking the red post report icon in the top right corner. If someone’s being uncharitable, hijacking, posting off-topic, or violating other forum rules, I can talk with the person and hopefully resolve it before it becomes an issue.

The perspective of participants on this topic might be different and I welcome the continued conversation so that we can all grow together.

For all the times I’ve failed you the posters and readers, caused you offense or not lived up to my responsibilities as moderator, I ask for your forgiveness.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator

 

[Aramis]

The problem, Catherine, is that the mods in some other sections seem to treat the EC section as a ghetto, and want us EC’s to stay within. Especially notable in the traditionalist forum; the L&S isn’t too bad about it.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

**Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the liturgy, theology, spirituality, discipline, culture, and history of Eastern, Oriental, and Western Catholicism on this forum. **However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

…]

I have long said that I don’t care if a poster wants to argue that the flying spaghetti monster is God. I believe topics are self-selecting so that people not wanting to talk about them will ignore threads that aren’t of interest, that the truth will prevail when presented charitably, and that it isn’t my job to tell posters what they may and may not find interesting. I am only here to facilitate the conversation by equally applying the forum rules to all posters. I ask posters to bring questions or concerns to me so that I have the ability to address them. If someone’s baiting or trolling, let me know by clicking the red post report icon in the top right corner. If someone’s being uncharitable, hijacking, posting off-topic, or violating other forum rules, I can talk with the person and hopefully resolve it before it becomes an issue.

…]

The perspective of participants on this topic might be different and I welcome the continued conversation so that we can all grow together.

Thank you, Ms. Grant, for your thorough and reasoned guidance in these matters, and for having undertaken an exhaustive analysis of issues that seem to be perennial trouble spots. I’m sure we all will benefit from your posts here. I, for one, have been known to “call out” suspected trolls / baiters in the threads themselves, and have underutilized the “report” feature.

Blessings!

 

[Catherine_Grant]

It appears that it is time to revive this thread. Same rules as stated above apply.
**
Is this a ghetto? **
No. All people of good will are free to post on any of Catholic Answers’ forums. We group the forums by thematic content for ease of use. Because of the lower overall post count on this forum in comparison to others on CAF, we are able to have a wider variety of conversations here which include topics of interest to Eastern Catholics and not solely about Eastern Catholicism. This isn’t a restriction, but a freedom most other forums here are unable to entertain. The Traditional forum is a similar board which not only discusses traditional Roman Catholicism, but is able to entertain topics of interest to traditional Roman Catholics. Those forums with a high thread count are necessarily stricter about defining the parameters of threads/posts made to them, expecting them to be strictly within the forum’s boundaries. Threads/posts outside a forum’s thematic content parameters are moved to a different forum on CAF which better fits the topic.

Why do you do things differently from some of the other moderators?
Each of the moderators has wide latitude in moderating his or her own forum to be able to address the particular forum’s needs. I answer only to what goes on here on the Eastern Catholicism forum. I’m secretly happy that so many are comparing this forum to a resort spa: CAF’s very own Pool of Bethesda. OK, so no one made that comparison. I do find that the posters here are the best at CAF and that might have something to do with it. Don’t tell the other moderators! If you have questions or concerns with a moderator’s decisions, you can write that moderator or the forum administrator to address them. In the mean time, you are always free to bathe in the luxury that is the Eastern Catholicism forum.

Are people who aren’t Eastern Catholic welcome here?
Yes, absolutely. Let’s show them all that famous eastern hospitality! If you think that a thread/post is outside this forum’s thematic parameters, it is not helpful or kind to post your criticism in the thread. Click the red triangle button and write a note to me. I’ll be able to move it if it needs to be moved.

Are you a real person or is this copy and pasted by a robot?
Catch me between 10 and 10 and I’m real. Send me a note. Put in post reports. Give me chocolate. Talk to me, people!