Questions from a Non-Catholic

[quiet]

Hi All,

An non-Catholic acquaintance has been asking Christian the following question and looking for the answer. I wonder if any of you might be able to help.

Nothing is known or can be known about the nature of God. Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that Pastor speak like God exist?
In his opinions, preachers are probably scammers based on a book written by man, which we called the bible.

If there is no promise of a afterlife, would Christian still be bothered believe in God?

Since Christian are doing good things for earning brownie points to Heaven. Does it make them doing good less authentic? Doesn’t that make unconditional love a fallacy?

 

[Thomh]

We know about God what He revealed Himself through the prophets, the inspired authors of the Bible, the Church and its Tradition and Bible.

Since God is the ultimate good, praying Him and following His teachings would still be a good thing, even though we don’t get anything after that. But it would be contrary to his perfect nature because God naturally rewards the faithful, otherwise He would be unjust.

On the contrary, doing God’s will to get into Heaven is the most perfect act of love there can be. Likewise, people who don’t believe and do good things have their own merit but they don’t understand fully their own intent, their moral values that inspired them to do such things come from God but they don’t recognize it.

 

[SonofFire]

Here are my answers for someone with an atheist view:

1. The fact that God exists can be determined from observing the material world we live in. This determination is independant from knowing about the nature of God.
2. Even from an athiest view, the bible (the New Testament in particular) includes an historical account and this historical record is very much in agreement with other secular historical records.
3. Yes, I would believe in God even if no afterlife, because evidence of His existence is clear in this material world as I indicated in 1.
4. I am not motivated to do good things to “earn brownie points to heaven.” I’m motivated out of the grace of God inside me which aligns my will with His. Thus, my will to do good is authentic and no fallacy (it is just who I am as molded by God’s grace). I just do what is good without thinking that I have to do good.

Hope this helps.

 

[phil19034]

I am not motivated to do good things to “earn brownie points to heaven.” I’m motivated out of the grace of God inside me which aligns my will with His. Thus, my will to do good is authentic and no fallacy (it is just who I am as molded by God’s grace). I just do what is good without thinking that I have to do good.

@quiet

And to add to this fine answer, even if a person was doing good things out of fear, (which we call an “imperfect” reason) - it’s still better than not doing good.

There is a fine line between imperfect motivations and selfish and/or dubious motivations.

Good works are always good, even if the motive is imperfect.

 

[redbaron162]

Hey thanks for the questions.

1. “Nothing is known or can be known about the nature of God. Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that Pastor speak like God exist?”

Says who? We know lots of things about the nature of God from a revealed point of view (Those things God has told him about himself) and a non-revealed (Those things which can be deduced from reason.

1. “In his opinions, preachers are probably scammers based on a book written by man, which we called the bible.”

Well that’s his opinion but it probably isn’t a very good one and here is why. While there are some preachers who live an extravagant lifestyle the vast majority do not. Most Priests, Pastors, ministers I know of are of quite humble means. (Catholic Priests of course usually own very little or have a vow of poverty if they are of a religious order) If they are all trying to scam people they aren’t doing a very good job. In addition many Christians throughout history have given their lives rather than give up their faith. If they were just trying to scam people they would probably renounce their faith to live, rather than die for it.

1. “If there is no promise of a afterlife, would Christian still be bothered believe in God?”

Well Christians do believe there is an afterlife one way or another. There are also people (for example Deists) who believe there is a God even if they don’t believe in much in the way of an afterlife.

1. “Since Christian are doing good things for earning brownie points to Heaven. Does it make them doing good less authentic? Doesn’t that make unconditional love a fallacy?”

If a Christian is doing good things for brownie points he has some serious misunderstandings about his faith. We are saved by the grace of God which is an unmerited gift. We are required to have faith and do good works not for brownie points but out of love. However doing good things for a reward does not necessarily mean that it is not as authentic. People do good things for lots of reasons but they are regardless of the motivation good. I see no reason how any of that would make unconditional love a fallacy, perhaps you could explain the question more for me?

Thank you and hope this helps.

 

[Nicene]

Atheists aren’t usually interested in anything scripture has to say other than to try and refute it. Personally I usually appeal to their ego (or vanity) by using Pascal’s wager, as well as Plato, Aristotle, Leibniz, Aquinas, for the uncaused cause or Neitzsche and the master/slave mentalities.

Grad students aren’t really taught much anymore other than to parrot Dawkins, who is a poser when it comes to philosophy. So try to get them thinking instead of winning an argument. Pascal’s wager is the easiest bet.

Peace and God bless
Nicene

 

[Gorgias]

Welcome, @quiet!

Nothing is known or can be known about the nature of God.

Not true. We know based on God’s self-revelation to humanity. We can also look at the universe and reason from it certain facts about God.

Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that Pastor speak like God exist?

Why? Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that your friend speaks like God doesn’t exist?

In his opinions, preachers are probably scammers

You know the old saying: “opinions are like…” well… “everyone has one.”

based on a book written by man, which we called the bible.

We would say that the Bible was inspired by God. If he has some counter-examples or proof that it isn’t inspired by God, then it would be interesting to see what he’s got. Otherwise, what’s his claim based on? Just his personal opinion?

If there is no promise of a afterlife, would Christian still be bothered believe in God?

Look in the Old Testament. They didn’t know of ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’, and they still believed.

St Paul talks about part of this question in one of his letters. He mentions that if Christ didn’t die and rise again – and therefore, there is no eternal life – then Christians are the most wretched of all people. (His point is that Christ did rise again, and we do have the promise of eternal life.)

Since Christian are doing good things for earning brownie points to Heaven.

Nope. That’s not why “Christians do good things.” We do good works out of love for God and each other. Your friend has quite the cynical outlook, doesn’t he? I think your answer to this question might be, “do you only do good for the quid pro quo…?”

Does it make them doing good less authentic?

Are good works stop being good works if they are rewarded? That doesn’t hold up to logical scrutiny.

Doesn’t that make unconditional love a fallacy?

Ahh, now he’s getting closer, even if he doesn’t realize it! Ask him what God ‘gets’ out of us “doing good works”. (The answer, of course, is ‘nothing’ – God doesn’t profit from our actions.) This, then, means – by his own point of view – that God does love unconditionally!

(Humans, on the other hand, aren’t perfect. “Unconditional love”, from a human perspective, isn’t something we’re very capable of. An “imperfect” love, though, can be good enough…)

 

[quiet]

How about the following points

Creation of world is not historical fact

Noah’s ark make no scientific sense

Too many bloodshed and violence in the old testament Bible when God is supposed to be loving and forgiving

 

[Gorgias]

Creation of world is not historical fact

Ever hear of the “Big Bang”?

Noah’s ark make no scientific sense

Ever hear that the Catholic Church doesn’t subscribe to Fundamentalist and strictly literalistic interpretations of Scripture?

Too many bloodshed and violence in the old testament Bible when God is supposed to be loving and forgiving

Ever notice precisely who is being violent and killing folks? It’s people, not God. In fact, in those places where we see God commanding war or causing violence, what He’s doing is protecting His people whom others are attempting to kill!

So… no. God is loving; and He protects His people from evil.

 

[Aquinas11]

Nothing is known or can be known about the nature of God. Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that Pastor speak like God exist?

WHAT God is and THAT God exists are two different things. Aquinas conceded we cannot know WHAT precisely God is, but his 5 ways demonstrated we can know THAT God Exists.

 

[Gorgias]

WHAT God is and THAT God exists are two different things. Aquinas conceded we cannot know WHAT precisely God is

Good point, and good distinction! Aquinas also talked about the ways that we can know what God is. Not perfectly, of course. But we can approach that question and gain valuable knowledge!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Nothing is known or can be known about the nature of God. Isn’t it a bit of a stretch that Pastor speak like God exist?

No. Regaridng “nothing is known”, there are lots of things in the universe that man doesn’t know about yet, and lots of things in the past that man didn’t know about for centuries (microscopic creatures for example) but it didn’t make those things any less real just because Man didn’t know about them. Regarding “nothing can be known about the nature of God”, that’s debatable, since God’s son, who is also God himself in the second person of the Holy Trinity, appeared in human form on earth and was personally known to people and his existence historically recorded as well as recorded in Scripture; also many believers have some personal experience of God’s love or God guiding them in some way.

In his opinions, preachers are probably scammers

Some preachers are scammers and some are not. If your friend wants to make broad generalizations about groups of people, rather than making a personal decision about each of their sincerity, that’s his problem.

based on a book written by man, which we called the bible.

The Bible may have been physically written by humans, but it was written under divine inspiration and is the Word of God. It is therefore not just some “book written by man”.

If there is no promise of a afterlife, would Christian still be bothered believe in God?

The entire point of God is that life and love are eternal, while our life on earth is just a short time period of our existence. You cannot separate the two things, God and afterlife. Or if you did, then we wouldn’t be discussing God anymore, as in the real God. A God with no afterlife would be some fictional creature made up by people like your friend.

Since Christian are doing good things for earning brownie points to Heaven.

That’s not why a true Christian “does good things”. We “do good things” because it’s how we’re supposed to act towards others. No amount of “good things” we could do would be sufficient for us to merit Heaven. God decides who goes to Heaven and it’s not based on the person doing 145522121 good things, it’s based on the love in their heart for God and neighbor.

Does it make them doing good less authentic?

No, because anybody who was only doing good things for “brownie points” towards Heaven would be missing the point and God would probably be looking rather askance at that.
As I said, we do things out of love, not to get something for ourselves.

Doesn’t that make unconditional love a fallacy?

No, God doesn’t love somebody extra for doing good things. He loves everybody the same.
He may be pleased with the works of person A more than he is pleased with the works of person B, but that doesn’t mean he loves person A more than person B. It’s like a mom with two kids, one is good and one is bad, but a normal mom loves them both, she doesn’ t just love the good kid.

I hope this helps