Questions on teaching and practices

[Retroactivereality18]

I’m not sure what category this is supposed to be in but I’ll try to get to the point as quick as possible. I’ve been considering Catholicism off and on for 5 years and have been my most serious about it the last year or so and I nearly started RCIA but Covid 19 put a stop to that. I’ve had time to think and I keep questioning the churches teachings and practices. Why do so many things Catholics do cause controversy? Like statues and images for instance, the Bible clearly doesn’t have many nice things to say about them yet Catholics use them because they claim its “different” when they do it. Same with the rosary, Jesus instructed against repetitious prayer yet catholics do it because it’s supposedly not the same thing Jesus was preaching against. The last example I’ll give is that Jesus said he is the only mediator between us and god yet that Catholics have a pope, Mary, and the saints that they pray to and once again it’s defended as praying to the saints is not the same as using them as a meditator

I guess the main point is that it seems catholic teaching contains so many things that are controversial or could be interpreted as heresy. Also, it certainly doesn’t help that Protestant friends and family have plenty to choose from when they’re trying to “prove” Catholicism wrong. It’s makes me hesitant to even become a catholic. I’m just trying to understand why the church does so many things that look wrong from the outside looking in. If anyone knows of any books or has any insight into the matter to help me out I would appreciate it

 

[Guest1]

Well you’re on the right site!

Why do so many things Catholics do cause controversy? Like statues and images for instance, the Bible clearly doesn’t have many nice things to say about them yet Catholics use them because they claim its “different” when they do it.

God Said to Make Them
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple included statues of angels.

source - Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Same with the rosary, Jesus instructed against repetitious prayer yet catholics do it because it’s supposedly not the same thing Jesus was preaching against.

Question:
Jesus says, "Use not vain repetitions as the heathens do” (Matt. 6:7, King James Version). Doesn’t this prove that Catholics are wrong in praying the rosary?
Answer:
There are three ways we can respond.

First, Jesus is not condemning repetitious prayer per se. If he were then he would be condemning himself, since he prayed multiple times, “Father . . . remove this cup . . . not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:39). But that’s absurd.

Furthermore, right after Jesus condemns the “vain repetitions” of the Gentiles, he commands the apostles, “Pray like this . . . Our Father who art in heaven . . .” Does Jesus intend for us to only say it once? Are we forbidden to repeat the Our Father? Of course not.

Finally, if we accept the objector’s interpretation of Matthew 6:7, we would have to condemn the four angels of Revelation 4:8 singing day and night without ceasing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty.” Of course we don’t want to do that!

• Source: Why the Rosary Isn't "Vain Repetitions" | Catholic Answers

The last example I’ll give is that Jesus said he is the only mediator between us and god yet that Catholics have a pope, Mary, and the saints that they pray to and once again it’s defended as praying to the saints is not the same as using them as a meditator

 

[Retroactivereality18]

Thanks for your response. I feel like the information you gave would certainly be good for defending the rosary and the one mediator subject. The problem is that no matter what I say about images I always get the response that god commanded those specific statues to be made, therefore any statues that Catholics make are idols since they weren’t directly commanded by god. I personally don’t believe the statues are being worshipped and I don’t believe most Protestants believe so either. I think they look at the matter as god so don’t do it so don’t do it.

Do you know if the images in Solomon’s temple were of his own creation? Or were they all given by god through David. I feel like if we could prove that Solomon added some of his own ideas and art to the temple then that would be the best argument to shut down a Protestant attack, since god did approve of the temple after all

 

[27lw]

I think about statues as a decoration and an aid to prayer.
I’ve been in Protestant churches where they use projectors and PowerPoint slides.
Does that mean Protestants worship PowerPoint slides? Where is it specified in the Bible that we are to use slides and projectors during worship? Or microphones and fog machines?

 

[Retroactivereality18]

You’re telling a lot of truth there but I know it wouldn’t stop some of them. I’ve even heard that apparently only 3 dimensional images are sinful. How they get that I have no idea.

I’ve been in charismatic churches where the band was doing guitar solos, in a sense that could be considered wrong it people want to nitpick at things

 

[annad347]

The different between the statues in the Catholic church and the ones mentioned in the Bible is idolatry. You aren’t suppose to idolize the statues in the church, they are decorations and reminders the people they represent.

Yes, people pray in front of them but they aren’t praying to them they are asking for help to pray to God, like asking a friend to pray for you… which is also why people pray to saints and Mary… God hears the prayers of the righteous more then anyone else. You don’t have to pray to saints or Mary if it makes you uncomfortable, its not mandatory to be a Catholic.

People use the Rosary to help them pray because it helps them to stay focus on what they are praying and to whom. Lutheran’s use the Rosary, not the Hail Mary prayer but they do say other prayers. People also use prayer bead to recite the Jesus Prayer. Helps keep the focus.

As for repetitious prayers like the Rosary, God wants us to pray without ceasing. 1 Thessalonians 5:17 . He doesn’t want is us to pray so that the world can see us praying, thinking we are so good, such a perfect Christian, “Look he’s always prayer, what a good person…” When in reality we might be saying words but thinking of what we need to do later and not thinking about God.

God also doesn’t want our prayers to have no meaning, no purpose, to be an automatic set of words you don’t even have to think about to recite. Prayer should be private, personal conversation between you and God. He wants you to care about what you are praying, understand what you are praying, why you are praying what you are praying. Also Jesus taught us the Our Father because people asked “teach us to pray as John” and He did Luke 11:1-4. It’s a perfect prayer.

Hope that helps a little… sorry I have no books to help you with for more answers, I do a lot of Google search and compare them with Bible scripture.

 

[1ke]

Why do so many things Catholics do cause controversy?

Because people are ignorant of the rich patrimony of Christianity.

The reformation separated those Christians from their heritage and over time creates not only ignorance of, but false teaching about, Catholicism.

Like statues and images for instance, the Bible clearly doesn’t have many nice things to say about them

Not true at all.

yet Catholics use them because they claim its “different” when they do it.

Not the reason.

Same with the rosary, Jesus instructed against repetitious prayer yet catholics do it because it’s supposedly not the same thing Jesus was preaching against.

Jesus did not instruct against repetition in prayer. He instructed against something very specific, the vain repetition going on among they Sadducees and Pharisees— prayer only for show.

Jesus said he is the only mediator between us and god

Actually, Jesus never said that. Paul makes these statements in Timothy and Hebrews, but not in the context you are implying.

yet that Catholics have a pope, Mary, and the saints that they pray to and once again it’s defended as praying to the saints is not the same as using them as a meditator

Intercessory prayer is not the same as the salvific act of Jesus standing between God and man.

I guess the main point is that it seems catholic teaching contains so many things that are controversial or could be interpreted as heresy

Catholics contains nothing controversial and cannot be interpreted as heresy. It’s the other way around. Those who left the Church have the wrong teaching and wrong understanding.

 

[Elizabeth3]

The problem is that no matter what I say about images I always get the response that god commanded those specific statues to be made, therefore any statues that Catholics make are idols since they weren’t directly commanded by god.

To those who believe and interpret the Scripture about not making graven images as an absolute for everyone for all time no explanation will ever be good enough. They believe their interpretation is the correct one.

The Catholic interpretation is that if you take the story in context of the people making graven images to worship them as gods then that doesn’t exclude the making of statues or crucifixes or any other holy reminders to aid in worship or inspire us in our “running the race.” There’s a difference between worshiping a statue as a god and using it as a holy reminder.

Catholics believe in the communion of saints in which the Body of Christ, His Church made up of all believers whether in heaven, purgatory or on earth, are never separated from each other by death. We are One Body with Christ as our Head. There is no division in Christ so the members who make up the Body will communicate with and for each other to and through Christ our Head.

Statues and other holy reminders aid us in that unity and communication by directing our thoughts to those who have gone before us and who lived the Christian life heroically. They join us in our prayers because we are united as One Body. Statues are no different than photos of loved ones who have died. They help us remember them.

Protestants use all kinds of reminders of their faith - Jesus fish symbols, the Bible, WWJD bracelets, angel statues, pictures and sculptures of Jesus, Nativity scenes etc. Catholics do the same. The only difference is that our “family photos” help us to remember the saints and to ask for their prayers. We aren’t limited to just asking the part of the Body of Christ that is still here on earth to pray for us. We have the fullness of the communion of saints to choose from.

The final question will not be whether you can convince those who interpret that Scripture as an absolute that their interpretation is wrong, it will be which interpretation of Scripture do you believe?

 

[kapp19]

1 - Christ Himself is an Image. That’s the “game changer.” From emphasizing transcendence to revealing immanence… that seems to be the logic, or at least part of it, of the old ban on images.

2 - Christ encourages repetitive prayer in the Parable of the Unjust Judge (Luke 18:1-8)… The rosary, furthermore, is more about contemplating the mysteries of Christ within the context of intercession. There are many encyclicals (papal “letters”) on the rosary… worth checking out, easily found online…

3 - Aren’t your friends mediating by telling you what who is and isn’t a mediator? Isn’t Paul mediating by saying there is only one Mediator? The answer is of course that there are different kinds of mediation in the Church - one by nature which belongs only to Christ, and one by participation. If you ask your friends to pray for you, who are sinners on Earth, why not ask saints in Heaven for prayers too?

 

[Todd_Easton]

Although 1 Chronicles 28:19 indicates that the plan for the statues and other graven images of Solomon’s Temple was given by God to David for Solomon, I’m not so sure the same can be said about the fourteen lions made for Solomon’s throne and its six steps. (1 Kings 10:18-20; 2 Chronicles 9:17-19)

 

[Gorgias]

The problem is that no matter what I say about images I always get the response that god commanded those specific statues to be made, therefore any statues that Catholics make are idols since they weren’t directly commanded by god.

So, ask them:

• What makes an idol an ‘idol’ is that people worship and make sacrifice to it. Do you think Catholics worship statues? That we offer sacrifice to them?
• When Jesus said to Peter “whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven”, did He forget to say “except statues – you’re not allowed to permit representations of anyone or anything”…?

Do you know if the images in Solomon’s temple were of his own creation?

Yes, he literally ordered them created, himself.

I feel like if we could prove that Solomon added some of his own ideas and art to the temple

No need for you to prove their assertion. Point them to the part where the temple of Solomon is being built and challenge them to find anything in the Bible that says that this particular part of the temple was ordered by God.

I’ve even heard that apparently only 3 dimensional images are sinful. How they get that I have no idea.

They’re making it up as they go… that’s how!

Look – the whole thing about “no statues, no pictures, no nothing” is a man-made ordinance. In the 16th century, John Calvin decided that art had no value – that it was merely illusion – and that it might even lead to idolatry. So, he taught his followers that all images must be torn down and taken out of churches. Not just “3 dimensional images”, but stained-glass windows, paintings, frescoes – all of it. It’s the literal definition of a “tradition of men.”

He instructed against something very specific, the vain repetition going on among they Sadducees and Pharisees— prayer only for show.

Actually, He was referencing pagan practice in this verse.

And, it wasn’t even “vain repetitions” – the Greek word really means “chatter” or “babble on”. Jesus even affirms this when He points out that it’s the “many words” that He’s talking about. (Pagans essentially used to throw “everything but the kitchen sink” in their prayers, hoping that they’d find the magic formula in them somewhere, in order to make their gods do what they wanted them to do. Kinda like ‘Rumplestiltskin’…)

 

[annad347]

Actually, Jesus never said that.

He said “I am the way, and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me… John 14:5-14

… it will be which interpretation of Scripture do you believe?

I think you’re the only Catholic I’ve ever heard say this…

 

[kapp19]

And, it wasn’t even “vain repetitions” – the Greek word really means “chatter” or “babble on”. Jesus even affirms this when He points out that it’s the “many words” that He’s talking about. (Pagans essentially used to throw “everything but the kitchen sink” in their prayers, hoping that they’d find the magic formula in them somewhere, in order to make their gods do what they wanted them to do. Kinda like ‘Rumplestiltskin’…)

Yes… an episode at the base of Mount Carmel comes to mind…

 

[1ke]

He said “I am the way, and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me…

Which isn’t what the OP stated. The Bible verses regarding “mediator between God and Man” are in Timothy and Hebrews.

 

[Elizabeth3]

I think you’re the only Catholic I’ve ever heard say this…

In the context of her saying she’s been considering converting, of course. She either believes the Protestant interpretation or that the Catholic Church’s sense and/or interpretation of the text is correct due to the Church’s authority. She will have to discern which is true whether or not she is able to convince those who are challenging her that it’s true.

 

[Guest1]

Thanks for your response. I feel like the information you gave would certainly be good for defending the rosary and the one mediator subject. The problem is that no matter what I say about images I always get the response that god commanded those specific statues to be made, therefore any statues that Catholics make are idols since they weren’t directly commanded by god.

Ask them where is that rule in the bible?
No statues at all? As in no George Washington statues ? Or just statues of religious figures.

Are the Christians you hang around with believe in reformed theology?

 

[annad347]

Which isn’t what the OP stated. The Bible verses regarding “mediator between God and Man” are in Timothy and Hebrews

1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 9:15?

 

[choose_to_love]

Get “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Catholic Answers’ own Karl Keating. Great book for the kind of issues you are dealing with.

 

[truthseeker]

I’m just trying to understand why the church does so many things that look wrong from the outside looking in.

For the first 1500 years there was no one looking in it was just the Catholic Church founded by Christ.
Only after the reformation when people broke away from the church believing heresy themselves did they think that Catholics were heretical.

 

[Retroactivereality18]

Mainly Evangelical, Southern Baptist types. Also there’s a lot KJV onlyism in my family. My Grandfather was an IFB preacher. So I definitely had a dose of anti Catholicism growing up