Radioblogger Transcript: Fr. Fessio on Pope Benedict XVI

[jlw]

Thoughts on Pope Benedict XVI, from someone who really knows him.

Lots and lots to do, but yesterday, we started the show out with Father Joseph Fessio, the Chancellor/Provost to Ave Maria University in Florida, who has been a good friend and student of Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI for over 30 years. It was an eye opening interview on lots of levels, and here is how that interview went.

HH: I’d like to start by asking you to describe for our audience the spirit of the new Pope, as you’ve known him for these 30 years.

JF: Well, Hugh, most people have probably read about the ‘Panzer Cardinal’ and ‘God’s Rottweiler’,

HH: Yes.

JF: And I’ve known him for 33 years. I’ve seen him in all sorts of situations. I’ve been with him long periods of time, formally and informally, and I can say unqualifiably, he’s a man of God. He’s Christ-like, he’s soft-spoken, he’s gentle. I’ve never heard a word of anger from his mouth. That’s the one un-Christlike part. But he’s a real gentleman. Absolutely nothing at all like the caricature.

HH: How has he stayed with his students? Students know teacher quite intimately, especially PhD students, their dissertation advisors. I’m not sure if he was your advisor or not, but…

JF: He was my advisor.

HH: Well, then how was that, because they can often be taskmasters on PhD students?

JF: He was such a beloved teacher. This was back in the 70’s, now, when I was studying in Germany, that his students, once they got their degrees, actually formed a Schulerkreis, a group of former students. And we’d meet and he’d come join us every year for two or three days at a monastery. We’d pick a theme, we’d invite some important theologians or speakers, we’d discuss it, have Mass together, eat together and recreate. So we kept up with him over the year that way, with a meeting every year.

HH: Tell us about his intellect, which has been widely reported, but not very coherently by a media that may not get it yet.

JF: Well, Hugh, I’m also the editor of Ignatius Press, it’s a Catholic publishing company that’s based in San Francisco.

HH: Oh, yes.

JF: …in your same glorious state. I’m in Florida now, no right minded Californian would ever come down here. I beg the pardon of all the Floridians who might be listening. And we’ve published 25 of his books in English, and they’re profound. I can say I’ve never read an article or heard a homily or sermon by him when I didn’t learn something new. He has a deep knowledge of the sources of revelation of the Old and New Testament, the sacred scriptures. He loves the fathers of the Church. He loves the school men, especially Bonaventure. He’s read widely in modern philosophy and theology and contemporary issues. He really is a stunningly powerful intellect, but he’s so humble. I mean you’d never think of him as being that overpowering just by looking at him or talking to him.

HH: The homily that he preached on the day that the Conclave began, with the now famous phrase dictatorship of relativism, seems to have summed up quite a lot. Was that a fair and accurate peek into the center, the core of his philosophy?

JF: You know, he’s gentle, but he follows the Master. Jesus was a sign of division and contradiction. And so what he does is he’s received this message which is so precious. The Word of God, in all it’s richness, and he’s interiorized it, you know, and made it his own. And he’s meditated on it, and therefore, he proclaims it. And he was in a position in the Chruch, while this bishop and his prefect, the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, was his duty to alert people if they were teaching or holding positions which were not consistent with Christ, with the Gospel, with the teaching of the Church. And when you do that, of course, you make people angry. But he never did it in an angry way. He was always fair and even-headed. I know I sound like I’m making a saint out of him, but I have to tell you. You could talk to anybody who’s worked with him, who knows him well. He is revered.

HH: I want to talk doctrine, but first, a couple of quick questions. Does he like sports? And what does he like to eat?

JF: Well, I forget what he likes to eat. He’s a Bavarian, so he likes a good, you know, healthy meal. Lots of potatoes, I’m sure, and drinks beer and white wine. He’s never really a sportive type. He likes walking in the mountains and walking generally, as the Germans do. But he’s not really an athlete like Pope John Paul II was.

 

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HH: Now on to doctrinal issues. He’s a German Pope. Germany is the land where the Reformation began, and the Church split. I’m a Protestant. His first public sermon was about bringing Christians together. What do you expect of that?

JF: Well, I was just going over his first sermon, and by the way. What led up to that was pretty amazing. You know, we’re waiting for the announcement. It starts to rain in St. Peter’s Square. People bring out their umbrellas. It’s getting kind of dark and dismal. Suddenly, the sun breaks throught the clouds. Warmth stretched through the square. The curtains open, and it’s Cardinal Ratzinger. That was in the evening.

HH: Yes.

JF: And after that, of course, it was pandemonium and joy and confusion. And the next morning, early in the morning, he presides over the Mass, and he reads a homily, four single-spaced, type-written pages, in Latin. Now that’s amazing.

HH: Yes, that is.

JF: But I was going over that homily, Hugh, and it’s really a typical Ratzinger, quiet masterpiece with some time bombs in it. But the press really noticed his talk about his desire for humanism and reunification of all those who follow Christ.

HH: Yes.

JF: …and also reaching out to the world as light of the world. And he means that. He’s sincere about that. But, if you notice, he first talks about his own role as the sign of unity in the Church, as successor of Peter, then the bishops and Cardinals, who are his helpers to work collegially with him. And then he talks about the Second Vatican Council, which he affirms, and says he will try to implement. Then he goes on to what the actual content will be of his plan. And the first thing he says is the Eucharist, the Lord’s supper. The body and blood of Jesus, our source and nourishment. And he says from that source, we will go forth, we’ll strive and desire to have the unity which Christ meant when he brought us together in that last supper. And so, it’s in that context of being faithful to our own beliefs and traditions that will lead us to engage in fruitful dialog with those with whom we don’t fully agree. And the great thing about him, Hugh, is that he doesn’t expect you to change your beliefs, or water them down, to get along. And he expects the same respect from you.

HH: Exactly.

JF: …that he’s not going to change his. But he knows, and you know, and I know, there’s only one spirit. If you and I disagree, either one of us or both of us is wrong in some way. But if we love the Lord, we seek His truth. We want Him to fill our lives, and we want to imitate Him. We will become one. First, one in heart. But if we don’t succeed in doctrinal unity in this life, we’ll be one in the next life. But I think his ecumenism is an ecumenism of truth.

HH: Let me ask you about the…not schism, well, it might be a schism, with the Society of Pius X. Have you had occasion to discuss with the Pope this probably very painful separation of those who followed Archbishop Lefebvre?

JF: Well, not before he was Pope, but we discussed these things many times. You see, he was born during the Holy Week Trinium. Either Good Friday, or Holy Saturday, I’m not sure which. But he’s was then baptised on Easter Vigil Mass, and he’s always considered his life to be a life lived within the Paschal mystery, a life surrounded by the Liturgy of the Church. And so he’s always had a deep, deep love for the worship and praise of God that we do together. And he was not able to write any real books while he was prefect of the Congregation. He did a lot of articles and talks and homilies that got collected, except for one. His deepest love is the Mass. And so he wrote a book called *The Spirit of the Liturgy. *And it’s clear that he believes that what happened after Vatican II, that council, was that the way the Mass was celebrated really represented a break from tradition. It was no longer in continuity. So, he has said publicly that the previous rites should never have been abolished, because it was a rite that had nourished saints for centuries. At the same time, he was the one who had to negotiate with Lefebvre and other, and who had to tell the Pope we can’t take anymore. They’ve broken the rules here and they ordained bishops. So, he deeply wants to have the Mass celebrated, as he says in his homily, with solemnity and rectitude. So I think he will reach out to those who have a love for the pre-Conciliar Mass.

 

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HH: We have a minute to our break, Father, does that make you an optimist about unification on the right side of the Church?

JF: Well, you know, I haven’t thought that through enough, Hugh.

HH: Okay, fair enough.

JF: And I’m not…I know he wants unity, I want unity, but the most important thing I want is for the Catholic Church to be faithful to herself and her tradition. If we do that, we will be able to have wonderful exchanges with Protestants. And we’ll also be able to have a deeply, missionary and epistolic Church.

HH: 30 seconds before…I don’t want to waste any time with you, Father.

JF: Okay.

HH: Does he have bishops with whom he is close? Is he a fan of Chaput? Is he a fan of the new fellow in Boston? Who does he relate with in the United States?

JF: Well, I was the one that encouraged Bishop Chaput when he was in South Dakota, I think, or somewhere.

HH: Yes.

JF: …to go visit Ratzinger in Rome. So he does know Chaput and he admires what Chaput has done. He has great admiration for the Americans. He thinks a lot of the bishops are, you know, kind of compromising, or not exercising leadership. In fact, we’ll get back to that later. But, he believes that the complaints about too much centralization are brought on by bishops who don’t want to exercise authority in their own dioceses.

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HH: Father Fessio, when we left, we were talking about the American Church, and some great bishops who are here leading the American Church. But the American Catholic Church is in somewhat of disarray after the child molestation scandals and a great deal of financial hardship in the wake, and unhappy settlements and non-settlements in some diocese. What does the new Pope think about what happened? Why it happened? And how the Church emerges from it?

 

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JF: Well, first, Hugh, to me, it was a moment of supreme joy when I realized in the midst of this crisis, so dark and often a crisis of leadership in the Church, that these sinful men like ourselves could get together in a room and elect such a great Pope. I mean, the fact that he’s even a bishop or a Cardinal is almost a miracle, but that he should the suppport of all these others was just a tremendous grace being given to the Church. I have talked to him about this at great length. His office, the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, was the one that was handling appeals to accusations on the part of priests. And I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I do recall we were pretty much in agreement. And that this crisis is not really a sexual crisis, and it’s certainly not a pedophilia crisis, because most of these were young boys, you know, post-pubescent. It was really a crisis in the teaching of the Church being accepted. And I think it goes back all the way to 1968. This is something that you may not agree with me on, as a Protestant, but I believe the Catholic Church’s teaching on contraception is the most profound teaching the world has seen. It recognizes the sacredness of marriage that every act of intimacy in marriage is meant to be open to love and to life. And that you neither leave out the love and clone people, or leave out the life and contracept. But once you separate procreation from union, fruitfulness from pleasure, then there’s no possible way you can justify restricting sexual pleasure to married people. Because if it’s just pleasure not connected to having children, then it’s like drinking wine or dancing, or if you don’t do those things, like playing golf or doing crossword puzzles, if that’s your pleasure. And therefore, even though people naturally know it’s wrong, they have no principles by which to know it’s wrong. And so, when temptation comes, people are going have no…against it. And therefore, in the 1960’s and 70’s, when bishops, priests, seminary professors were saying oh, it’s a matter of conscience, you know, this isn’t infallable, what they did was they took away the intellectual foundation for the unity of fruitfulness and embassy in marriage. And when they did that, there was no argument against homosexual acts, against extra-marital acts, against pre-marital acts, against bestiality. And I think, therefore, that if we would have had doctrinal courage on the part of the bishops, to maintain the Church’s teaching, we wouldn’t have had this crisis.

HH: Was there also some systemic flaw in the seminaries that produced so many criminal predators? Because there was the positive law, even if the moral law in your view had failed, and was not being taught. There was still the positive law that was being broken.

JF: Which positive law were…

HH: The American law which said you cannot be a predator of children.

JF: Well, yes. But I don’t think they started as predators, and by the way. The problem is not essentially predators of children, it’s homosexual acts. And that is as crisis is, it only covers boys who were under 18. I mean, there’s another crisis that’s not public.

HH: Yes.

JF: …which is consentual homosexuality with people that are statutorally above the age. Another thing which happened on this is that we had a lot of bishops who were specifically chosen because they were supposed to be reconcilors. People who get along. The Apostolic delegate in those years, Archbishopd Jadot, his profile for bishops was someone who was, you know, a man of all views. Someone who was not controversial. Well, what happens when a bishop like that is told that there’s something going wrong in seminary? Well, first he doesn’t want to hear it. Then he won’t believe it. If he does believe it, he won’t do anything about it. And then when he goes to Rome, he’ll tell Rome things are okay. And if Rome gets a report, he’ll say well, that’s just an exception. So what happened is there was a culture of deceit that began to be inculcated in many of the bishops in the United States.

 

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HH: Has that bishop description changed? Or will it change unde the new Pope?

JF: It’s already changed under the old Pope, actually. Especially in the last few years. But I’m fairly confident that Cardinal Ratzinger is going to emphasize kind of audit, internal Church affairs, to make the body stronger.

HH: I want to stay on homosexuality for a moment, Father…

JF: Sure.

HH: …because so much of the criticism of the new Pope has come from very, very angry people who advocate for reconciliation with gay and lesbians. And does he love gays and lesbians?

JF: He loves them like Jesus loved them. He would die for them. But he, like Jesus, would not be deceitful to them and tell them what they are doing it all right. Go and sin no more.

HH: Go and sin no more. Let me also ask you, since personnel is up. 48 members of the 115 who elected Benedict are 74 years and older, and so he will have, even in a short papacy, and I wish him a long one, quite a profound impact on that college of Cardinals. Do you expect his selections as Cardinals to be significantly different than his predecessors?

JF: No, I don’t. I think that he’ll have Cardinals who support the Pope John Paul II’s vision and Pope Benedict’s vision. And what that means is that since he was elected so quickly by such a large majority, the liberals who’ve been waiting for the Pope to die for so long, and now have been frustrated once again, with their only hope being that Ratzinger’s 78 years old, they’re going to be disappointed another time.

HH: Are you amazed at the vitriol that has been directed at this new successor to Peter?

JF: Hugh, ever heard this? The disciple’s no greater than this master? Jesus elicited tremendous faith and devotion and fatal hostility. Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict is a man who is following Jesus. And he is going to have the same reponse that Jesus had. There’s some who’ll see in him an image of God, you know, that we’re made Imago Dei, and others who will see him as an enemy to be done away with. I’d like to tell you this. Those who really, in their hearts, are committed to letting Jesus be Lord, are going to love Pope Benedict. And those who want to be lord of their own ideas, and their own views of the Church, will be very hostile to him.

 

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HH: Are there some among the Church leadership who are in that latter camp?

JF: Yes, but they’re more discreet about it.

HH: But does his know who they are?

JF: He might. You know, here’s an amazing thing about him. When Archbishop Casper was the bishop, you know, in Germany, he publicly disagreed with Ratzinger after privately telling working things out with Ratzinger. And Ratzinger, when that man was up for Cardinal, could have blocked him. He didn’t.

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HH: A couple of quick ones. What are his prayer disciplines? The Pope’s prayer disciplines?

JF: Well, of course, he loves the Liturgy. He was born, as I said on Paschal Mystery days, so he loves to celebrate Mass. When he does, when you’re there at his Mass, you just feel the presence…I mean Christ is present in him as well as in the host, as body or blood there. Then, of course, he prays the Divine Office, which is basically the Psalms, it’s the prayer of the Jewish people which has been taken over by Christians at the time of Christ and beyond. He certainly practices personal prayer, reading and meditating on a sacred scripture. He prays the Rosary.

HH: Does he have a devotion to Mary on the order of John Paul II’s?

JF: Well, you know, it’s hard to compare people’s devotions. He certainly has a devotion to our lady. But Cardinal Ratzinger is a more interior kind of quiet person. He’s not the ebullient, vigorous type that John Paul II was. So, you know, they love God, they love our Lord, they love the saints in their own ways.

HH: Now the…John Paul II was often said to be toying, or thinking through, not toying, thinking through the idea of Mary as co-redemptrix, a doctrine which, of course, would widen the split among Christians in the world. What is Pope Benedict’s view on that? That suggestion?

JF: Well, I know what that is, because he was involved when John Paul II asked the Cardinals their opinion on this, and what I’m going to tell you now is my view, but I know it’s consistent with Pope Benedict’s. First of all, Americans in particular, have this tendency to think that in the Catholic Church, it’s not important if it’s not defined infallably. But you know, when you’re seeking to follow Christ, to let Him be Lord over your life, to make sacred scripture the norm of your living, you know, you don’t ask whether this thing is more important than that. You follow it all. And so, I think it would be a mistake to define it even from that point of view. I do think that there is a proper way of understanding Mary as one who fully received the grace offered her. And insofar as she did that, became a cooperator with Christ even in redemption. It’s all His. He’s 100% redeemer. But He shares with us that redemptive power by making us members of His body. And Mary was the first. She’s the first bride of Christ. And so I think, you know, there’s a theologically justifiable way of giving Mary the title of co-redemptrix. But, it is certainly misunderstood, because in our language, it sounds like co-pilot or co-author. And that seems like it’s an equality which simply isn’t there. And then, why should we offend our fellow Christians, who won’t understand even if we might be able to explain it to them over a period of time? A final reason is that Americans tend to be kind of informal, everthing hanging out the way it is. But there’s a sense of formality in decorum which is part of the Christian life. And you don’t always proclaim on the rooftops everything which is part of your belief. There’s certain parts of Catholic life which we’re not ashamed of, but it’s something for the family. It’s something we share among ourselves. We don’t go out and try to plaster the billboards with it. So, I don’t expect Pope Benedict to define that doctrine unless, of course, the Holy Spirit somehow comes upon him and he gets an inspiration. But I doubt that.

 

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HH: Do you expect him to continue writing at the prolific pace he has written?

JF: You know, I have been thinking about that. I think he will write, but of course he’ll write Papal documents. I doubt he’s going to write too much beyond that. Although, he got that semon done overnight somehow.

HH: I know. That’s pretty amazing.

JF: The man is amazing.

HH: Do you have a guess as to who his replacement at the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith will be? Because obviously, that’s a key position.

JF: Well, let me tell you a rumor that I have floating around. That he’s not going to have a replacement. When I asked about that, I was told that there was a tradition in the past that there was an office for the Doctrine of the Faith, but the person in charge was not a Cardinal, a prefect, he was just a secretary, kind of an assistant, and the Pope himself was, in effect, the prefect. And the person who told me this said he thinks that Cardinal Ratzinger may try to soften the bureaucratic face of the Church and make it look more like a Church than an office building.

end…

 

[jlw]

ME: I’m excited about our new Pope!! :clapping: :bowdown2:

 

[MJE]

Thank you for posting this. I caught the last few minutes on the H.Hewitt radio program yesterday. I think HH, raised a Catholic, has learned more in the past week about the RC Church & doctrine then he ever did before.

 

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MJE:

Thank you for posting this. I caught the last few minutes on the H.Hewitt radio program yesterday. I think HH, raised a Catholic, has learned more in the past week about the RC Church & doctrine then he ever did before.

I agree!! He left the Church really because Luther made sense to him. That’s it!!(?) I’m a big fan of Hugh, and called his radio show the day JPtG died. Hugh will come back to Rome before it is all said and done. I know it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Wow jlw. That was an amazing read. Thank you for being so generous as to post this.