Rape by Proxy

[PolarGuy]

A person who is forced under threat of death to commit some vile unnatural act does not sin, and no amount of legal hairsplitting as we sit safe in our homes changes this.

Want to see what it looks like when the devil walks the earth like a natural man? Read a good account of the rape of Nanking.

 

[jmjZelie]

A person who is forced under threat of death to commit some vile unnatural act does not sin

The Church has never taught this, but rather it has always taught the opposite. We had better accept that truth now before we ever face such a situation. It is better to die than to commit a sin, especially such a violent act such as rape.

 

[jmjZelie]

From Veritatis Splendor

"A doctrine which dissociates the moral act from the bodily dimensions of its exercise is contrary to the teaching of Scripture and Tradition. Such a doctrine revives, in new forms, certain ancient errors which have always been opposed by the Church, inasmuch as they reduce the human person to a “spiritual” and purely formal freedom. This reduction misunderstands the moral meaning of the body and of kinds of behaviour involving it (cf. 1 Cor 6:19). Saint Paul declares that “the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers” are excluded from the Kingdom of God (cf. 1 Cor 6:9). This condemnation — repeated by the Council of Trent — lists as “mortal sins” or “immoral practices” certain specific kinds of behaviour the wilful acceptance of which prevents believers from sharing in the inheritance promised to them. In fact, body and soul are inseparable: in the person, in the willing agent and in the deliberate act, they stand or fall together.

"The Church proposes the example of numerous Saints who bore witness to and defended moral truth even to the point of enduring martyrdom, or who preferred death to a single mortal sin. In raising them to the honour of the altars, the Church has canonized their witness and declared the truth of their judgment, according to which the love of God entails the obligation to respect his commandments, even in the most dire of circumstances, and the refusal to betray those commandments, even for the sake of saving one’s own life.

"Finally, martyrdom is an outstanding sign of the holiness of the Church. Fidelity to God’s holy law, witnessed to by death, is a solemn proclamation and missionary commitment usque ad sanguinem, so that the splendour of moral truth may be undimmed in the behaviour and thinking of individuals and society. This witness makes an extraordinarily valuable contribution to warding off, in civil society and within the ecclesial communities themselves, a headlong plunge into the most dangerous crisis which can afflict man: the confusion between good and evil, which makes it impossible to build up and to preserve the moral order of individuals and communities. By their eloquent and attractive example of a life completely transfigured by the splendour of moral truth, the martyrs and, in general, all the Church’s Saints, light up every period of history by reawakening its moral sense. By witnessing fully to the good, they are a living reproof to those who transgress the law (cf. Wis 2:12), and they make the words of the Prophet echo ever afresh: “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!” (Is 5:20).
Although martyrdom represents the high point of the witness to moral truth, and one to which relatively few people are called, there is nonetheless a consistent witness which all Christians must daily be ready to make, even at the cost of suffering and grave sacrifice. Indeed, faced with the many difficulties which fidelity to the moral order can demand, even in the most ordinary circumstances, the Christian is called, with the grace of God invoked in prayer, to a sometimes heroic commitment. In this he or she is sustained by the virtue of fortitude, whereby — as Gregory the Great teaches — one can actually “love the difficulties of this world for the sake of eternal rewards.”

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Very close, thistle. But all are engaged in at least venial sin, because that act is contrary to the natural law and to God’s moral law. The only person in mortal sin, as opposed to venial, would be the enforcer of the immoral act.

Otherwise, you’re right.

Not all; not the victim of rape.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Those of you who think that the decision is simple what if the choice was, “rape this person or I will rape your child, in front of you, so she can see that you didn’t protect her”? Also consider that the terrorist may still rape and/or kill you and your child no matter what you decide to do. Unless one has pondered this question like we are doing here, I don’t think we can say for sure the state of the soul who is being coerced to commit this heinous act.

Do not underestimate what war or a terrorist will do to cause suffering.

 

[PolarGuy]

jmjZelie, I’m sorry, but the Church does not teach what you purport it to, and the quotes you offer do not evidence what you claim they do.

If your logic (and the logic of those who agree with you) was accurate – and the Church did believe that the victim of a threat also sinned – there is no logical reason that the Church would not also say a rape victim sinned by dressing provocatively, or sinned by not choosing to die rather than be raped. Since the church doesn’t teach those things…I must conclude that you are incorrect.

 

[BornInMarch]

Why is that alarming to you, considering you’ve posed the question on a Catholic discussion board? It is not unfair to say from a keyboard or face-to-face for one who truly believes in the promise of Christ. Today I can say that faced with the choice you posed in the original post I would easily choose death. Earlier in my life, not so much.

I can only speak for my journey in this matter, but how I felt about dying anywhere along the way was my personal measure of faith. It occurred to me that death is only scary if it happens before I’m ready. Since I can’t control the timing of my death, I chose to focus on the other part: being ready to be taken at a moment’s notice.

This led me on my faith journey, here at CAF. I liken myself to Bilbo and Frodo from The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings taking that first step outside the Shire. Various discussion forums here pointed me in directions which led me to resources on the topic about what Catholics believe about life and death. I have such clarity now that I truly no longer fear ‘my time’.

Have you ever had a near death experience, or for that matter ever talked to anyone who was in a life or death situation? Death is terrifying: whether or not someone believes in God or Heaven does not change that. People who are in life or death situations (such as castaways and hostages) often pray to God to save their lives, because they’re afraid of death. Humans are literally wired to fear death, so it bothers me when this natural survival instincts are considered shameful.

It bothers me because this question isn’t hypothetical: Japanese Soldiers really did the crime I described to innocent Chinese Civilians in cities like Nanking. Some of those Chinese Civilians were christian, and a good amount of those were killed immediately afterwards. Do you honestly believe that after being killed, the Chinese Christians at Nanking were condemned to hell? Condemned for the crime of wanting to live, of wanting their loved ones to live, and for the notion that God (who is known for compassion) would not hold something done under coercion against them?

That’s why it bothers me.

 

[thistle]

If someone says, Kill this child or I will kill you; do you have a choice? Yes.

Even if someone says, kill this child or I will kill both of you, you still have a choice.

No you don’t because you are being coerced into a decision. What decision is made is irrelevant.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

I am pleased enough that my wife decided not to allow the one who assaulted her to take her life instead…kindly imagine how hurtful such comments might be to a survivor of rape…to suggest that she should not have survived…to suggest that her death would have been preferable to God than that she struggle to remain alive. God’s allegedly more monstrous ways is one reason for my current lack of faith…and discussions regarding how wrong my wife was to try to live have a chilling effect for me. It seems too reminiscent of honor killings…the outrageous concept that a loss of purity should be met with a loss of life…for what is purity other than a given disposition? Who can take that from one by force? Further, who has the right to seat themselves down and claim that one person is not pure enough to live? A victim of rape is just that…a victim. I defy any of you to have retained the presence of mind to beg for death instead of mercy were you to be in her place…for had my wife done so she would have been lost to me…and we would not have the children that we are able to cherish today…and I would likely be in jail now…for having killed a man to whom we had once offered friendship in spite of his past…who returned the favor with such selfish malice…

Regards,

Jelrak TB

Edit: I realize that many of you mean well…that many of you are of very kind and caring dispositions…simply understand that I simply cannot imagine why a loving god would condone such a thing…that I do not see it as an act of love to make a would-be rapist into a murderer…

 

[Trident_H]

I am pleased enough that my wife decided not to allow the one who assaulted her to take her life instead…kindly imagine how hurtful such comments might be to a survivor of rape…to suggest that she should not have survived…to suggest that her death would have been preferable to God than that she struggle to remain alive. God’s allegedly more monstrous ways is one reason for my current lack of faith…and discussions regarding how wrong my wife was to try to live have a chilling effect for me. It seems too reminiscent of honor killings…the outrageous concept that a loss of purity should be met with a loss of life…for what is purity other than a given disposition? Who can take that from one by force? Further, who has the right to seat themselves down and claim that one person is not pure enough to live? A victim of rape is just that…a victim. I defy any of you to have retained the presence of mind to beg for death instead of mercy were you to be in her place…for had my wife done so she would have been lost to me…and we would not have the children that we are able to cherish today…and I would likely be in jail now…for having killed a man to whom we had once offered friendship in spite of his past…who returned the favor with such selfish malice…

Regards,

Jelrak TB

Ouch. Man that’s harsh. I mean you and I have talked about this before, but I mean jmjZelie and YingYangMom and some of the others are really good people. I don’t think you mean things to sound so dark. I mean I know what you’re saying and I know what they’re saying and I don’t really think they are really arguing for that in that kind of context. I think they are more for the principle of the thing. I don’t know. I mean I don’t think they wish your wife had died instead. I think you are taking the wrong end of this.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[St_Francis]

I want to make clear that the victim of a rape does not sin; she does not choose to be raped anymore than someone who is mugged chooses to be hit and robbed.

This is all a question of consent. One is a victim because one does not give consent, so no sin.

WRT the original situation, however, the person does have a choice. The fact that it is a very bad pair of options can resuce the culpability of the threatened person, and if they were to die shortly thereafter, God would judge them according to the state of their soul–we are not to do that.

When we speak in generalities, it is to discuss a situation in general. In the particular, we are not to judge, lest we be judged, but to pray for those involved.

 

[St_Francis]

Have you ever had a near death experience, or for that matter ever talked to anyone who was in a life or death situation? Death is terrifying: whether or not someone believes in God or Heaven does not change that. People who are in life or death situations (such as castaways and hostages) often pray to God to save their lives, because they’re afraid of death. Humans are literally wired to fear death, so it bothers me when this natural survival instincts are considered shameful.

It bothers me because this question isn’t hypothetical: Japanese Soldiers really did the crime I described to innocent Chinese Civilians in cities like Nanking. Some of those Chinese Civilians were christian, and a good amount of those were killed immediately afterwards. Do you honestly believe that after being killed, the Chinese Christians at Nanking were condemned to hell? Condemned for the crime of wanting to live, of wanting their loved ones to live, and for the notion that God (who is known for compassion) would not hold something done under coercion against them?

That’s why it bothers me.

When considering questions such as these, we consider them in a general way accoding to Church teaching. We do this so that people will have some idea of the trends of how moral theology works in practice.

When it comes to the states of the particular souls involved, we do not know. Even something like fornication–if a participant is very mentally challenged his or her guilt may be completely mitigated, or there may be other factors.

So altho we can say, fornication is a mortal sin, we cannot say, X committed fornication and *must *therefore be in a state of mortal sin.

I hope I have made the difference clear.

 

[jmjZelie]

It is alarming how much words are twisted on these forums. I never said that it is better to die than be raped. I said it is better to die than to commit a mortal sin. We are not talking about rape victims here. We are talking about rape by proxy. The person who is coerced into raping another person is not themselves a victim of rape.

At this point, considering how terrible this thread has become, I am going to unsubscribe. I should have known better than to get involved. I only did so because I wished to answer Trident’s sincere questions about the gravity of rape. I should have stayed away entirely.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Ouch. Man that’s harsh. I mean you and I have talked about this before, but I mean jmjZelie and YingYangMom and some of the others are really good people. I don’t think you mean things to sound so dark. I mean I know what you’re saying and I know what they’re saying and I don’t really think they are really arguing for that in that kind of context. I think they are more for the principle of the thing. I don’t know. I mean I don’t think they wish your wife had died instead. I think you are taking the wrong end of this.

Peace.

-Trident

What of you? Have you lost your path so thoroughly that you have taken to trivializing this type of event to such a degree as you have previously described? What of your own personal experience on this front…? Have you been so successful in distancing yourself in all things that you have been able to step aside to such a degree…? I find your words in this thread confusing and frankly somewhat troubling in light of what we have previously discussed…I do not know what further to say to this.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I am pleased enough that my wife decided not to allow the one who assaulted her to take her life instead…kindly imagine how hurtful such comments might be to a survivor of rape…to suggest that she should not have survived…to suggest that her death would have been preferable to God than that she struggle to remain alive. God’s allegedly more monstrous ways is one reason for my current lack of faith…and discussions regarding how wrong my wife was to try to live have a chilling effect for me. It seems too reminiscent of honor killings…the outrageous concept that a loss of purity should be met with a loss of life…for what is purity other than a given disposition? Who can take that from one by force? Further, who has the right to seat themselves down and claim that one person is not pure enough to live? A victim of rape is just that…a victim. I defy any of you to have retained the presence of mind to beg for death instead of mercy were you to be in her place…for had my wife done so she would have been lost to me…and we would not have the children that we are able to cherish today…and I would likely be in jail now…for having killed a man to whom we had once offered friendship in spite of his past…who returned the favor with such selfish malice…

Regards,

Jelrak TB

Edit: I realize that many of you mean well…that many of you are of very kind and caring dispositions…simply understand that I simply cannot imagine why a loving god would condone such a thing…that I do not see it as an act of love to make a would-be rapist into a murderer…

There’s an FBI profiler, John Douglas, who wrote a series of books with accounts of his experiences. In discussing rape, his opinion was-

A woman who had survived the rape had made the right choice. There are too many variables in motivations to recommend a particular course of action. He’d seen women who were compliant that were murdered (rapist frustrated by the lack of fear, repulsion struggle that was his motive), he’d seen women that resisted who were murdered. And he’d seen the opposite of both cases. He would never criticize a woman’s choice when placed in the situation because it is all gut level instinct in determining what will turn the rapist to murder.

I will say some prayers in gratitude to the Lord that He has provided you and your wife each other.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

It is alarming how much words are twisted on these forums. I never said that it is better to die than be raped. I said it is better to die than to commit a mortal sin. We are not talking about rape victims here. We are talking about rape by proxy. The person who is coerced into raping another person is not themselves a victim of rape.

At this point, considering how terrible this thread has become, I am going to unsubscribe. I should have known better than to get involved. I only did so because I wished to answer Trident’s sincere questions about the gravity of rape. I should have stayed away entirely.

If I wrongly interpreted your response I am truly sorry. To be perfectly frank Trident’s very callous seeming statements fueled my rage…after which I simply saw every further response in a negative light. I did not mean you any disrespect. I probably should have read the posts here more thoroughly before posting…kindly understand only that shortly after my wife’s ordeal we were seated among friends and this type of topic arose…the consideration among those discussing same was nearly unanimous in its assessment that one who preserved their honor unto death were far preferable to those who might give in. Understand that my wife, herself was conflicted upon this subject and had considered that she should have perished in the attack. I had convinced her otherwise…and then we sat and had friends consider otherwise…ignorant of her pain. So if I have become overly sensitive it is because I have experienced the accidental callousness of the righteous and found it difficult to suffer in silence…yet truly I do not believe you or anyone specifically in this thread to be responsible for such thinking. My post was purely reactionary and without thought. I truly do apologize unreservedly to you and to any others who might have taken offense. If possible I would edit it further in light of this new day, but the best I might now offer is this apology.

Kind regards,

Jelrak TB

 

[Jelrak_TB]

There’s an FBI profiler, John Douglas, who wrote a series of books with accounts of his experiences. In discussing rape, his opinion was-

A woman who had survived the rape had made the right choice. There are too many variables in motivations to recommend a particular course of action. He’d seen women who were compliant that were murdered (rapist frustrated by the lack of fear, repulsion struggle that was his motive), he’d seen women that resisted who were murdered. And he’d seen the opposite of both cases. He would never criticize a woman’s choice when placed in the situation because it is all gut level instinct in determining what will turn the rapist to murder.

I will say some prayers in gratitude to the Lord that He has provided you and your wife each other.

Thank you for this.