Rape/emergency contraception

[Jennifer_J]

Not anymore, thankfully. I posted one of the other threads about 2 of my aunts who were forced to have hysterectomies when they were “institutionalized” (not an orphanage, but worse) as youngsters so that they couldn’t reproduce (eugenics at it’s finest). Anyway, that’s off topic.

Many Catholic women do wonder if a hysterectomy is okay with the Church, and again to cure a pathology, it is.

I’m so sorry that your wife has to endure this. Again, God bless her.

Jennifer

 

[jburgherr]

TY for your kind Christian words. You will have to answer to your God for what you say, so I will refrain from further comment:thumbsup:

Jack, You are quite right, I will answer to God for the things that I say and do, and for the things that I failed to say and do.

In earlier post I tried to lead you with another way of looking at how to approach your differences with the Church on it’s infallible teachings. That concept is that you should assume that you don’t know why the Church takes the stand that it has, that you might not know everything, and that your position may be wrong. It is then your responsibility to seek those answers (and there are scientific answers in case of abortion and contraception for you) as to why it teaches the way it does. I have never found, in my own personal experience, a time where the Church was in error and I was right. Likely you will find that same thing to be…if you only seek.

I have given you Paragraphs from our Catholic Catechism that will tell you and explain, from an infallible teaching document, what the Church teaches on Abortion and Contraception. It is clear, concise, thoughtful, and biblical. Seek the truth from real Church documents. RCIA Team members, Priests, and even Bishops from time to time, teach in error, and out of step with official Catholic teachings.

Having someone, who claims that they are wanting to join the Catholic faith, and then pronounces in public or in a public forum such as this, that they do not agree with an infallible teaching of this same Church causes scandal. Causing scandal and dis-unity within the Church sinful in nature and cause those outside the Church to wonder what the Church really stands for.

If I came across gruff or rude, that was not my intention, for that I humbly appologize. However, Facts are Facts and Truth is the Truth.

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.” Psalm 24:1

 

[jburgherr]

Jay:

While you mean well, this is precisely the reason why we lose existing and prospective Catholics, the “my way or the highway” judgemental attitude…
…Encourage, don’t discourage. Emphasize positive things, don’t tell somebody he is excommunicated if he has an issue with a teaching. Who is going to respond well to that?

Hi Mike,
I understand the spirit of what you are saying.

However, the Church is very clear on its standing on abortion and contraception. CCC: 2272 reads: “Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. the Church attachés the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life…”

The Catechism goes on in just 12 paragraphs later (CCC 2284) to say

“Respect for the soul of others: Scandal”
“Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity: he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or by omission…”

When Jesus told those who were following him that (paraphrasing John Chapter 6) “You must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you have no life in you!” Many following him said, “this is a hard teaching, who can accept it?” And they left his company thinking Jesus to be a fool." Did Jesus go after them and say…“hey wait a minute…I was just joking…what ever you think is fine with me.” No, he let them go on their way. Jesus then asked the apostles “Are you going to leave too?” and Peter replied, “Lord, you have the words of everlasting life, to whom else can we turn?”

The Catholic Church has the words and the teaching of everlasting life.

A person approaching the Church to become a member, and then calls the Magistarium foolish for its stance on matters of faith and morals in a public way… This causes me a visceral reaction and I must respond.

If people leave the Church because they don’t accept what the Church teaches, then so be it. God is merciful and can, in His own time, soften the hardest of hearts and these people can come back to the fold when they are ready.

When dealing with the eternal salvation of souls, “touchy feely” doesn’t suffice. My love for Jack is that I want the highest and best for him. And the highest and best is Heaven.

 

[fix]

PS no doctor would perform a hysterectomy to sterilise someone

That is a very general statement. If you want to talk specific medical cases you would be interested in things like this:

Q. 2.When the uterus (e.g., as a result of previous Caesarian sections) is in a state such that while not constituting in itself a present risk to the life or health of the woman, nevertheless is foreseeably incapable of carrying a future pregnancy to term without danger to the mother, danger which in some cases could be serious, is it licit to remove the uterus (hysterectomy) in order to prevent a possible future danger deriving from conception?
R. Negative.

From the moral point of view, the cases of hysterectomy and “uterine isolation” in the circumstances described in nos. 2 and 3 are different. These fall into the moral category of direct sterilization which in the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith’s document Quaecumque Sterilizatio (AAS LXVIII 1976, 738-740, no. 1) is defined as an action « whose sole, immediate effect is to render the generative faculty incapable of procreation ». And the same document continues: « It (direct sterilization) is absolutely forbidden … according to the teaching of the Church, even when it is motivated by a subjectively right intention of curing or preventing a physical or psychological ill-effect which is foreseen or feared as a result of pregnancy ».
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

 

[jack_hawkins]

Fix, show me a doctor who would perform a hysterectomy in this day and age to sterilise someone and I will report them to the appropriate authorities. What the church has to say on a matter which is strictly medical is irrelevant.

 

[fix]

Fix, show me a doctor who would perform a hysterectomy in this day and age to sterilise someone and I will report them to the appropriate authorities. What the church has to say on a matter which is strictly medical is irrelevant.

I did not say that. I said we should talk specific cases. The Vatican was questioned due to such a specific case. Do you maintain this situation never arises today?

 

[jack_hawkins]

I am not exactly sure what you are saying. It is medically unethical to perform a hysterectomy with the sole reason being to sterilise the woman. Of course you always get bad apples who will prescribe slimming tablets and thyroxine in an unethical fashion for example.
All this is irrelevant anyway, and my wife’s situation is not up for discussion in any way, shape or form.

 

[fix]

I am not exactly sure what you are saying. It is medically unethical to perform a hysterectomy with the sole reason being to sterilise the woman. Of course you always get bad apples who will prescribe slimming tablets and thyroxine in an unethical fashion for example.
All this is irrelevant anyway, and my wife’s situation is not up for discussion in any way, shape or form.

I was in no way referring to your wife. I was thinking about your comment about individual situations being more “free” than some of the stuff you read here.

Also, even disregarding complete, or partial, hysterectomy things like tubal ligation would still be immoral.

 

[jack_hawkins]

You’ve lost me to be honest.

 

[fix]

You’ve lost me to be honest.

Sorry. I was thinking of this:

As far as I can see, the church is actually more open to individual situations than some people make out. If I had a problem I would go and speak to the priest about it rather than talk on here or any other Catholic forum.

I am not saying to take what you read here as always accurate or a substitute for talking with your priest. I was saying that many think there are “loopholes” around what they regard as to “strict rules” in these cases.

 

[astegallrnc]

Perhpas I am overly suspicious, but the timing of the change in terminology is interesting. The pill was approved in the US in 1960.

"At the 1964 Population Council symposium Dr. Samuel Wishik pointed out that acceptance or rejection of birth control would depend on whether it cause an early abortion. Dr. Tietze, of Planned Parenthood and the Population Council suggested, as a public relations ploy, “not to disturb those people for whom this is a question of major importance.” Tietze added that theologians and jurists have always taken the prevailing biological and medical consensus of their times as factual, and that “if a medical consensus develops and is maintained that pregnancy, and therefore life, begins at implantation, eventually our brethren from the other faculties will listen.” (Discussion, Proceedings of the Second International Conference, Intra-Uterine Contraception, held October 2-3, 1964, New York City, ed. Sheldon Segal, et al…, International Series, Excerpta Medica Foundation, No. 86, page 212)</STRONG />

And in 1965 the American College of Obstetrics ad Gynecology published its new terminology bulletin that stated: CONCEPTION is the implantation of the fertilized ovum.” (ACOG Terminology Bulletin, Terms Used in Reference to the Fetus, Chicago, American College of Obstetrics ad Gynecology, No. 1, September 1965.) " Source

If anyone questions the quotes because the source is American Life League, please research it.

 

[litllulu]

I am not exactly sure what you are saying. It is medically unethical to perform a hysterectomy with the sole reason being to sterilise the woman. Of course you always get bad apples who will prescribe slimming tablets and thyroxine in an unethical fashion for example.
All this is irrelevant anyway, and my wife’s situation is not up for discussion in any way, shape or form.

WOW, I did not realize we had a forum full of medical experts. I think you guys need to stop watching Grey’s Anatomy. haha
Regardless, we can not comment on someone’s surgery, that is grossly innapropriate. Ask a surgeon about the necessity of a surgery, not a Catholic Forum. I saw another post get closed because people were soliciting medical advice from DOCTORs. Now you are getting them from lay people. Just talk to your dr.

 

[the_phoenix]

I’ve read enough of this thread to notice three things:

1. The admins have pulled a thread answering this question.
2. The American Catholic bishops have written something on this matter to answer this question.
3. Practicing Catholics here are answering the question.

My question is, what does the Vatican say? What does the Pope say? What is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter, and is there a link to it, or to a relevant quotation? I would like an answer that comes straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

Many thanks,

~~ the phoenix

 

[jack_hawkins]

WOW, I did not realize we had a forum full of medical experts. I think you guys need to stop watching Grey’s Anatomy. haha
Regardless, we can not comment on someone’s surgery, that is grossly innapropriate. Ask a surgeon about the necessity of a surgery, not a Catholic Forum. I saw another post get closed because people were soliciting medical advice from DOCTORs. Now you are getting them from lay people. Just talk to your dr.

Huh? I am a doctor!?
so therefore I’m asking no one’s advice!
Gray’s Anatomy is something I study not watch

 

[jburgherr]

Huh? I am a doctor!?
so therefore I’m asking no one’s advice!

Says it all.

 

[Wammy101]

Ok people, we’re looking at this problem as though the pill is an evil creation. Now, you are perfectly in your rights to refuse it and think its evil, but what the true evil here is, would infact be, rape. If people stoppped raping, then there would be no need for this topic. plain and simple.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Says it all.

meaning?

 

[fix]

WOW, I did not realize we had a forum full of medical experts. I think you guys need to stop watching Grey’s Anatomy. haha
Regardless, we can not comment on someone’s surgery, that is grossly innapropriate. Ask a surgeon about the necessity of a surgery, not a Catholic Forum. I saw another post get closed because people were soliciting medical advice from DOCTORs. Now you are getting them from lay people. Just talk to your dr.

I do not think anyone is talking about anyone’s personal health issues. I was referring to specfic examples, hypotheticals, that can be used to reason what is and what is not moral.

 

[fix]

I’ve read enough of this thread to notice three things:

1. The admins have pulled a thread answering this question.
2. The American Catholic bishops have written something on this matter to answer this question.
3. Practicing Catholics here are answering the question.

My question is, what does the Vatican say? What does the Pope say? What is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter, and is there a link to it, or to a relevant quotation? I would like an answer that comes straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

Many thanks,

~~ the phoenix

This from * Vatican City, 31 October 2000

• STATEMENT ON THE SO-CALLED
  "MORNING-AFTER PILL"