Rapture theology! dating!

  • Thread starter Thread starter myfavoritmartin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
MarcoPolo said:
That link doesn’t work for me, but you quoted St. John Chrysostom saying “with He Himself in the cloud which shall catch them” as evidence, but St. John is just citing 1 Thes 4:17, no? He is not giving it the 19th century Rapture theory (or some of the other modern ones) to go along with it.

And is this the only reference you found? From the 4th century? If you are right and it is about the tradition of the Rapture going back to the 4th century…what happened to the discussion from the 4th to 19th century?
Click to expand...
theotokos.org/ChurchLibrary/Antichrist/books_antichrist.htm
 
Amigo, instead of doing a cut-and-paste from the browser line, use the internet insert button. When you do a cut-and-paste there’s a big elipsis (the period-period-period thing indicating that many letters were cut off). Not all of us can follow an elipsis.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I have consistently heard catholics calling rapture theolgy a 19th century invention
the following link is from St. ephraem the syrian from the early 4th century, I encourage you to read the whole book but more specifically the 14th chapter 4th paragraph
theotokos.org/ChurchLibra…chapter_14.htm
An orthodox web page I believe!

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Catholics are amillenialists.

The September 24, 2007 broadcast of Catholic Answers Live featured Jim Burnham “Refuting the Rapture” - another “tradition of Protestant men.”

You can listen to it here: catholic.com/radio/calendar.php

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
MarcoPolo said:
Ok, paragraph 4 quotes the Book of Matthew. What is the revelation here? Now along with Thessalonians, you can add Matthew along with it in post #20. Plus the other questions I asked. 🙂
Click to expand...
Chapter 14
 
I’m surprised that no one has seemed to have pointed out yet that the St. Ephraem quote by the original poster mentioned absolutely NOTHING about the alleged events taking place BEFORE the Tribulation. We don’t need to debunk the validity of the quote, but rather point out that it says nothing about it happening before the Tribulation, nor any of the other deceptions that accompany the pretribulational rapture heresy.

It is my personal belief that there is not, nor has there ever been even one person in human history who came up with the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture based on his or her own personal interpretation of Scripture. Even John Darby, who invented the false doctrine, did not personally derive it from Scripture. It was based on a vision from a girl. He then took the vision, applied the vision to the Bible, and was able to find texts that he could twist to support it.(Even though he may have had honest intentions.) It is my belief that 100% of people who believe in a pre-tribulational rapture were TAUGHT to believe it, and not even one generated the idea from STRICTLY personal interpretation of Scripture. You can’t pull something out of Scripture that flat out is not there. You can, however, bring something into Scripture, and then find words that when read through the murky lens of that false theology would SEEM to support what was said. Such is the case with the pre-tribulational rapture. It is TERRIFYING how many genuine “believers” were lead astray by this deception.

This is why God gave us a Church that can make infallible declarations, as opposed to a book whose personal interpretations are as diverse as there are people who are trying to personally interpret it.
 
FrankLawrence said:
I’m surprised that no one has seemed to have pointed out yet that the St. Ephraem quote by the original poster mentioned absolutely NOTHING about the alleged events taking place BEFORE the Tribulation. We don’t need to debunk the validity of the quote, but rather point out that it says nothing about it happening before the Tribulation, nor any of the other deceptions that accompany the pretribulational rapture heresy.

It is my personal belief that there is not, nor has there ever been even one person in human history who came up with the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture based on his or her own personal interpretation of Scripture. Even John Darby, who invented the false doctrine, did not personally derive it from Scripture. It was based on a vision from a girl. He then took the vision, applied the vision to the Bible, and was able to find texts that he could twist to support it.(Even though he may have had honest intentions.) It is my belief that 100% of people who believe in a pre-tribulational rapture were TAUGHT to believe it, and not even one generated the idea from STRICTLY personal interpretation of Scripture. You can’t pull something out of Scripture that flat out is not there. You can, however, bring something into Scripture, and then find words that when read through the murky lens of that false theology would SEEM to support what was said. Such is the case with the pre-tribulational rapture. It is TERRIFYING how many genuine “believers” were lead astray by this deception.

This is why God gave us a Church that can make infallible declarations, as opposed to a book whose personal interpretations are as diverse as there are people who are trying to personally interpret it.
Click to expand...
👍
 
A pretrib rapture is unbiblical. The rapture is merely when Christ returns at the end of time on judgement day. Rapture theology was a 19th century invention! I am a protestant saying this. Dispensationalism requires it so it can seperate spiritual israel from the church in the Old testament.

None of the Protestant reformers would have even dared believe it! (maybe it was their catholic education, lol) Yet, very few protestants follow the reformers. What is it like 10% at best? The reformers were all amillenialists like Catholics. Yeah, some were postmillenialists but that is really a form of amillenialism. The 19th century was the explosion of heresies new and old into protestant ranks.

Before 19th century there was little change and the mainstream divisions were drawn only over issues that existed since the reformation. Presbyterians and Baptists were still chummy on everything but baptism and the new covenant membership. Anglicans and Methodists only disagreed on being Born again and the means employed. Lutherans were well Lutherans.

How is Christ to return and judge when he is already on earth because of the millenium?
 
I forgot to say this in the last post. Pre-millenialism is different than Rapture theology. Pre-millenialism has been a minority view (With good reason) throughout the church.

Someone needs to focus on the rapture or on a distinction between spiritual israel and the church in prophecy in the early church. These two things are new. Along with the placement of the rapture. The 4th century quote is ambigious for this reason.
 
myfavoritemartin --slapped down again.😦

Honestly, mfm, you’ve been coming here with a bellicose spirit a long time, and time and again Catholics have proved you, if not wrong, but that you have let your animus toward the Church blur your thinking .

Why do you have this masochistic drive to prove Catholics and Catholicism wrong?
 
Fidelis said:
myfavoritemartin --slapped down again.😦

Honestly, mfm, you’ve been coming here with a bellicose spirit a long time, and time and again Catholics have proved you, if not wrong, but that you have let your animus toward the Church blur your thinking .

Why do you have this masochistic drive to prove Catholics and Catholicism wrong?
Click to expand...
I tend to agree.

What is the point of your incessant harping, Dean?

You’re not convincing any Catholics here with your wearisome argumentation, you’re not open to hearing what we have to say, and you’re jeopardizing your own salvation since your exposure to the truth takes away your claim to being “invincibly ignorant.”

You sit around at night reading anti-Catholic books and then come running in with the latest arguments or quotes that you’ve just learned only to have them refuted. Do you seriously believe you will come up with something new that the Church has not dealt with many, many times before in its 2,000 year history? Spare us. :rolleyes:

On the one hand, you’re giving us good target practice for when we need to evangelize our co-workers, friends and families into the Church, but honestly, what do you really think you’re accomplishing? 🤷
 
I just read an orthodox response to this pseudo ephram writing

1 it is most likely an eigth century forgery
2 it curiously surfaced after someone offered a lot of money to anyone who can prove pre trib rapture was taught prior to the 18th century
3 there are 2 versions Latin and syriac. While the Latin seems to be teaching pre trib rapture the Syriac version makes it clear the elect will escape the tribulation through death not rapture
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top