RCIA/Easter Vigil dropout

[Debra_C]

I understand your distress with the process very much. RCIA is actually geared toward providing general catechesis to those who come to the Church not having been raised in another Christian faith. Because such instruction is time and resource consuming and there are often relatively few candidates and catechumens in a given parish from year to year, the program for those seeking baptism and those seeking full communion are often combined under RCIA. The traditional way, though, for those seeking full communion is to meet privately with a priest, deacon, or other catechist.

I, too, had difficulty with it and found it hard to get answers to many of my questions. Certainly you are free to avail yourself of other resources to seek your answers, even if there is not time to cover all your questions in detail through the parish RCIA program. Anyone can purcahse and read, for example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also, I believe you can read it for free online at the US Cuncil of Catholic Bishops website. Certainly the entirety of the New American Bible is there for your reading. Also, you will find that Catholic Answers (this site) has a lot of catechetical information as well as www.newadvent.org, which has posted the Catholic Encyclopedia, a rather large listing of Saints’ biographies, and St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica in English.

Certainly you should feel confident about accepting the teachings of the Church before you enter into full communion and receive Confirmation. That requires that you feel you adequately understand them.

As for whether or not your acceptance of Catholic teaching must be 100%… well, yes and no. I would expect that you would need to be able to fully embrace such core doctrines as the seven sacraments, including Confession and Marriage, and at least the basic dogmas concerning Mary. As to the celibate priesthood and the prohibition on birth control, though you might struggle with these teachings, if you choose to become Catholic you will be expected to abide by them. Certainly you will be expected to accept the authority of the Magisterium, the teaching arm of the Church, and papal authority. If you can’t accept the teachings on birth control and the celibate priesthood on at least that level, then perhaps you are not ready.

Though I feel like I can answer all these concerns to my own satisfaction (if I had not, I would not have become Catholic myself), I think whole threads, even whole books could easily be written on each question in your list. My suggestion to you is to start reading, as indeed entire volumes have been written on these very subjects.

In regard to birth control, I would recommend the associated sections in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Beyond that you should consider reading Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body or Christopher West’s books on PJPII’s Theology of the Body (one is titled Good News on Sex and Marriage). Regarding priestly celibacy, you would glean the most from reading essays regarding the history of the Church and papal authority. Several good articles are posted right here on Catholic Answer’s website. You will also find good explanations of Marian dogmas here at Catholic Answers and at New Advent. The importance of Confession is well handled by the writings of the Church Fathers, Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, and several articles at Catholic Answers as well.

As for divorce and remarriage, this boils down to one major difference in how Protestants and Catholics see marriage–we believe it is a sacrament. Therefore it cannot simply be undone for the sake of man’s convenience. The need for an anulment is centered on this premise. The Church must examine a broken marriage and make a ruling on whether or not it was a valid sacrament. If so, remarriage in the Church is not permitted. This is Jesus’ clear teaching–only if a marriage is unlawful can it be so dissolved in the eyes of God. This would mean that the marriage had at its inception some sort of serious flaw, such as a lack of understanding on the part of one or both spouses what they are entering into, deception on the part of one of the spouses from the beginning of the marriage (for example, not disclosing an unwillingness to ever have children, or never having any intention of being faithful to the other person), etc. This does not mean there aren’t legitimate reasons why a couple might legally separate or divorce and be unable to continue living together. However, such does not free a person to remarry.

This is very basic to our understanding of the Sacrament of Marriage. Sadly there are many who are unable to comply with this teaching in our modern society, and so leave for other churches or are unable to receive Communion. But numbers do not override truth, nor does the popular opinion of society at large. This was the teaching of Our Lord, and this has always been the teaching of the Church. You may recall that a certain king was unwilling to accept this and subsequently created the Church of England just so he could marry his mistress.

Best wishes to you. I hope and pray you will find your anwsers.

 

[Truthstalker]

I’m basically still a protestant at heart.

Yeah, you are.

RCIA seems to have been developed to keep people from becoming Catholic. Enough ranting on that.

The FUNDAMENTAL difference between Catholics and Protestants is one you haven’t addressed, and that is whether the CC has the authority to take its position, whatever position, on any issue, and whether therefore the Christian is bound to believe that teaching. Either you do or you dont. It’s not an amalgamation of issues but a single issue. If the church says only left-handed midgets with red hair can become priests, you go along with it with a whole heart if you are Catholic. Otherwise you aren’t. You can debate secondary issues until you are blue in the face but you need to see where you are at on the primary one. Find the important issues.

 

[Craisin]

I myself am also a seeking Protestant that gets stuck on certain issues, especially that of the Immaculate Conception and Papal authority. That being said, I’m not trying to push you in one way or the other (because I myself have no strong opinion as of yet), but I am also trying to understand more of Orthodox Christianity as well. Perhaps working through some of these arguements may help. While the Orthodox still participate in the sacraments, and have the same idea of the Eucharist, their view on Church authority is different from the Catholic Church. Instead of one sole Roman Papal authority, they believe that their bishops have equal authority, and they’re still considered to be apostolic - their teachings and authority handed down from the apostles. Also, apparently, they don’t believe in the Immaculate Conception in the same sense because they have a different view on original sin. They do believe, however, that Mary lived a “chaste and holy life” - according to their Cathechism. - bible.ca/cr-Orthodox.htm

I know that some also have more of a lax view on contraception, as long as the means of contraception is not abortifacient and is used within marriage. However, I am beginning to go with the Roman Catholics on their stance for only NFP and the use of not using contraceptives. Although you’ve probably already heard many the the arguements, probably the best arguement I’ve heard for not using any contraceptives is that they create both a physical and mental barrier that doesn’t fully allow the “two to become one flesh”.

The Orthodox, from what I understand, also tend to be a bit more mystical - from what I’ve noticed, they will say “that is not for us to know” more often than, say, Roman Catholics. Their view on the Church differs from the of Roman Catholicism in that because the Eucharist is fully Jesus present (not just part of Him), and Christ is the founder of the Church, that each individual church is the Church. Obviously, I’m probably not the best person to explain this concept.

As far as celibate priesthood goes, I would have to agree with you - although I can somewhat understand the RCC arguement. However, both the Orthodox Church, and even Eastern Catholics (who are still under the Pope), have married priests. It is more of a lower case “t” tradition apparently.

Perhaps you could try reading a book in depth about Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox Church as well. I’ve read “Rome Sweet Home” by Scott Hahn. He is a Catholic convert from Reformed Presbyterianism and talks in depth about the issues he struggled over, and step by step why he converted for each issue. It’s a fun read because it is in the context of a story. I am currently reading “Faith of Our Fathers” by Gibbons, which is an older book but goes really into depth on the main Catholic Doctrines and beliefs.

For Orthodoxy, I am reading “The Orthodox Church” by Timothy Ware. It goes into depth about the history of the Church, and was written by a Protestant convert I believe, so he makes it pretty understandable to those in the “Western” mindset. I also have the book “The Orthodox Way” by Bishop Kallistos Ware, which I have not started reading yet - but this book goes more into the doctrine, worship, and life of Orthodox Christians.

Perhaps I am just reiterating that which you already know - but hopefully this post helps you know at least, that you are not the only one struggling in this process. May the Lord bless you as you seek Him, and may His face shine upon you now and forever.

 

[GreenLantern]

The Orthodox, from what I understand, also tend to be a bit more mystical - from what I’ve noticed, they will say “that is not for us to know” more often than, say, Roman Catholics.

This probably has to do with the history of Scholasticism and analytical philosophy in Western Europe.

 

[baileymj]

Brothers And Sisters,

I have some comments… Hopefully the Holy Spirit is guiding my fingers…

About the Immaculate Conception I have one point I would like to make… If you had the ability to clean the soul of your mother prior to her birth would you do it? Each of us did not have that ability but Jesus did - I know how much I love my mother (and it is completely imperfect compared to love that Christ had for his mother). Logically I think that Christ went above and beyond for His mother especially due to her strength of faith.

The primary reason for the Papacy is for unity. We only need look at the 30,000+ Protestant demoninations to see the dreadful dis-unity of the Christian faith today. We must also remember that even though the Pope is the head of the universal church each Bishop truly is the head of his church and is rarely interfered with by the Pope.

The primary reason for the rejection of artifical birth control is the fact that it changes persons to objects of pleasure. When one engages in the marital embrace (sexual intercourse) without the openness to the possibility of children he/she begins to reduce the act to the mere physical enjoyment (and ther person to an object of enjoyment) rather than the physical and spiritual union that God intended.

Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist for Catholics and Orthodox. This is THE reason to come to church. It is not an obligation to receive our Lord but a distinct privilege. Nothing we do will ever make us worthy to receive Him but His Glory will ALWAYS overshadow our sin.

May God have mercy on us forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life. Amen!

Matt

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Craisin:

I know that some also have more of a lax view on contraception, as long as the means of contraception is not abortifacient and is used within marriage. However, I am beginning to go with the Roman Catholics on their stance for only NFP and the use of not using contraceptives. Although you’ve probably already heard many the the arguements, probably the best arguement I’ve heard for not using any contraceptives is that they create both a physical and mental barrier that doesn’t fully allow the “two to become one flesh”.

There is no one stance in Orthodoxy on contraception. NFP is approved by Rome, but traditional Catholics generally reject it, since it is an innovation (at least in terms of formal Church approval) and moreover can easily be used with a contraceptive mindset.

Keep in mind that the Orthodox Church does not operate the same way as does the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church come directly from the Pope of Rome; the bishops and priests simply carry out his will (or oppose it, if they so desire). The Orthodox Church is still debating these issues, just as they were debated by Western Christians during the sexual revolution. This blog addresses the issue quite well by placing it in certain ecclesiological perspectives: ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2007/02/does-orthodoxy-allow-contraception-or.html

The comparison with the DP is pretty good, I think.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Craisin:

The Orthodox, from what I understand, also tend to be a bit more mystical - from what I’ve noticed, they will say “that is not for us to know” more often than, say, Roman Catholics. Their view on the Church differs from the of Roman Catholicism in that because the Eucharist is fully Jesus present (not just part of Him), and Christ is the founder of the Church, that each individual church is the Church. Obviously, I’m probably not the best person to explain this concept.

The Orthodox have a different understanding of what “mystical” means. In Western usage, mystical typically connotes visions, private, personal experience of God beheld by a monk or some very other highly religious person. Theology (thinking about God) is spoken of as separate. The Orthodox do not separate mysticism from theology, because the two go hand in hand.

Orthodoxy focuses more on apophatic theology than the West. The Orthodox emphasize the unknowability of God more than the West. God is known through his divine energies, but he always remains unknown in essence. In the West, there is (at least nowadays) generally no distinction, and there’s a greater emphasis on fully knowing God in the Beatific Vision. In the East, there’s the notion of continuing perfection but never complete perfection in knowledge of God.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Craisin:

As far as celibate priesthood goes, I would have to agree with you - although I can somewhat understand the RCC arguement. However, both the Orthodox Church, and even Eastern Catholics (who are still under the Pope), have married priests. It is more of a lower case “t” tradition apparently.

The debate goes back to the early Church. Some bishops demanded celibate priests, others believed it not necessary. Many Roman Catholic theologians today admit that the Apostles and many of the early priests and bishops, while married before their ordination, practiced strict sexual abstinence afterwards.

The Council in Trullo (accepted by the Eastern Orthodox as the canonical conclusion of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils; but rejected by Roman Catholics) condemns mandatory celibacy of all clergy.

 

[rick43235]

If the church says only left-handed midgets with red hair can become priests, you go along with it with a whole heart if you are Catholic. Otherwise you aren’t.

So…to be a Catholic you have to be a mindless drone??? I don’t belive that, I and bet most people on here don’t believe it either. God gave us brains for a reason.

 

[nmc1a0]

“Keep in mind that this is not a “Catholic thing”. All Christians should believe that marriage is forever, if they aren’t, they are not following God’s commands.”

I agree. And not all Protestants embrace divorce. Check out the apologetics regarding the indissolubility of marriage offered by this Reformed Baptist, John Piper. He really dissects this issue and is even more rigorous than us Catholics, in that he doesn’t seem to recognize the option of annulment.

heritagecommunitychurch.net/divorce.htm

 

[Verita]

Let me start out by saying that I’m an RCIA dropout too. Though in my case I left because there was clear and open heresy being taught there.

1. Divorce & remarriage. I’ve never been married. However, I’m in my mid-30’s and I hope to find a wife some day. At my age, the chances of finding a wife that hasn’t already been married and is now divorced is pretty much nil. According to Church teaching, I would not be able to take communion if the Church doesn’t grant an annulment to the future spouse. My main point in this is my resistance to papal authority. Yes, I know what Jesus said about this, but it seems to me like the Church is ignoring the context. They seem to do that when it’s convenient.

First, I don’t know what context you mean. Jesus’ statement seems entirely clear and straightforward to me. Second, consider the consequences if the Church is right. If you were to marry a divorced woman you would be committing the gross sin of having sex with another man’s wife. I don’t think any matter of convenience is worth that risk.

1. Confession of sins to a priest. Especially when there is perfect contrition. I have serious theological differences here. The Church cites ONE VERSE where supposedly Jesus instituted the requirement of confession to a priest although this was not mentioned anywhere else in scripture. In fact, confession of sins to God (alone) IS mentioned THROUGHOUT the bible. Perfect contrition? “Yes,” says the Church, “but you must still confess.” Why? Because Rome (man) says so?

You seem to be saying that if Jesus only says something once it doesn’t count. Think about that.

1. No forms of birth control allowed. I can accept the prohibition on forms that kill an embryo (like the pill) but the prohibition on ALL forms seems over-the-top.

Ask yourself, is my opposition to this teaching because I have serious and valid reasons for thinking it is immoral, or is it because not using birth control is inconvenient?

1. Celibate priesthood. Doesn’t affect me personally but I still disagree with this teaching. So does my priest!

If you think that celibacy is “wrong” then you are disagreeing with St. Paul himself. He clearly and emphatically promoted celibacy as a good and desirable and even preferable thing. The Bible makes it very clear that being celibate is the best way to serve God. Why should not the Church try to uphold the same standards that are so praised in the Bible?

 

[newbetx]

Let me start out by saying that I’m an RCIA dropout too. Though in my case I left because there was clear and open heresy being taught there.

So what are your plans? I’ve heard others that were frustrated but stayed in. And There is another Thread around here somewhere that a Deacon is asking what program he should start. I’d be interested in your feedback.