RCIA question about consecration

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In my RCIA class the instuctor was asking true or false questions. She said: At mass, Jesus is present prior to the consecration. TRUE. What did she mean? I thought the bread & wine became Jesus but prior to that it’s just bread & wine? Do you think she meant Jesus is “present” as in, Jesus is everywhere?
 
We speak of the “real presence” in the consecrated bread and wine; areal physical presence. However in scripture we find Jesus is also present to us in many other circumstances. For instance"Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there with them. In John we read read, If you love me and keep my commandments, the Father and I will come and make our dwelling place with you." And again Paul says that “Do you not know you are temples of the Holy Spirit?” Jesus is also said to be present in the proclaimed “Word” of scripture and it goes on and on. Jesus so loved us that he literally cannot stay away. The trinity has devised so many many ways in which to be with us, their beloved creatures. I have always felt that Jesus’s presence in the Eucharist is rather special, but am joyfully happy that God is with us in so many ways and circumstances. Another quote from a Pentacostal Minister was “God inhabits the praises of His people.” In my experience he was correct because that is one of the times in my life when I really “feel” His presence. God Bless from a 15 year leader/teacher of the RCIA process. Dick 🙂
 
Might she possibly have been referring to the presence of hosts that have already been consecrated and are being held in the tabernacle? Just a guess.

DaveBj
 
I have a feeling that it’s related to the erroneous belief that Jesus is *just as much * present in the congregation or even in the other sacraments as he is in the Eucharist, and there is some truth to this. The Catechism makes it abundantly clear, however, that the Lords presence in the Eucharist is much more “real” than in these other types of presences:
**CCC 1374 ** The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, *the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” * “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial * presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.” (italics in original)
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Thanks for your replies. I had an opportunity to speak the Priest who was also in the class and he explained that Jesus is present in Spirit when two or more are gathered in His name. However, after the consecration when the bread & wine are turned into his body and blood, not only is He present in Spirit, He is physically present also. I understand now. God Bless, CM
 
I’m glad the priest cleared that up for you.

In my view the original True/False question and the answer which indicated that Jesus is present *before * the consecration was way too confusing.

When one is giving instruction about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, it is a mistake in teaching methods to try to equate that with His spiritual presence in the congregation and in the readings. The Real Presence is too important to allow for confusion.
 
If I may, and I in no way intend to hijack this thread, but another RCIA question has bothered me.

In class last week a question was asked that I can not answer. In the Creed, we say, “He decended to the dead (hell), the third day He rose AGAIN”. It almost sounds like Jesus died TWICE, based on the wording.

What does it mean by AGAIN?
 
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mkw:
In class last week a question was asked that I can not answer. In the Creed, we say, “He decended to the dead (hell), the third day He rose AGAIN”. It almost sounds like Jesus died TWICE, based on the wording.

What does it mean by AGAIN?
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Who asked the question? A classmate?

The Greek prefix “ana” in “anastanta” (rose again) means ‘again’ in the sense of “to what it was before.” E.g., I went to the store and came back again. In other settings, “ana” can mean “again” as in “twice” – “Anabaptists” but that is not the only meaning.
 
Just to clarify the original question. In Catholic theology Christ is first present in the assembly gathered together to worship. He is present in the priest who is the alter Christus (other Christ), He is present in the Word proclaimed and, finally, He is present in the Eucharist. It is not correct to say that He is *physically *present in the Eucharist because our teaching is that He is *substantially *present. There is, of course, a physicality in His presence under the Eucharist because the accidents (shape, form, taste, touch, appearance, weight, etc.) of bread and wine remain.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed,

What does it mean that Jesus is “substantially” present? How is that different from physically present?
 
carol marie:
Deacon Ed,

What does it mean that Jesus is “substantially” present? How is that different from physically present?
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Excellent question! When one is “physically present” one has both one’s accidents and one’s substance in the same place. That is, if I were standing in front of you not only would my substance (what makes me me) be there, but so would my accidents: my appearance (don’t let it frighten you), my skin coloring, hair color, eye color, weight, and so on. All of that needs to be present for a physical presence.

In the case of the Eucharist, we have the substance of Jesus, that is, his divine and human nature, present but His accidents are not present (except by concomitance – and that gets very deep into philosophical questions) and, therefore, He is not physically present.

In fact, this physical presence is what cases many Protestants to deny the Real Presence. If Christ were physically present in the Eucharist in one Church, then He could not (they say) be present in another. Of course, because He is God He could be physcially present anywhere He wants to be.

The Church, however, has very carefully avoided the term “physical” in favor of the term “substantial.” Note that in using this term, the Church indicates a presence that is more real than, say, simply a sacramental presence. A sacramental presence is, in fact, a spiritual presence and the Eucharist transcends this by becoming the actual body and blood of Christ in substance while remaining the accidents of bread and wine.

I suspect that’s clear as mud, but your question is really deeper than this type of forum allows us to get into. We spent nearly a month on this question in one of my graduate theology classes.

Deacon Ed
 
Hehe. I think this amply demonstrates that Real Presence is not well-suited to a True/False question. 😃

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
Hehe. I think this amply demonstrates that Real Presence is not well-suited to a True/False question. 😃

Scott
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While I fully agree with this statement, I’m not sure that was the catechist’s purpose. The Real Presence is certainly a presence of Christ that is superior to every other presence. But we cannot thereby deny the other forms of the presence of Christ. I think that is what was supposed to be the result of the question…but that’s just armchair quarterbacking…

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:

Thanks for a clear answer to a question that had not occurred to me yet, but might have in the near future as I go through RCIA.

👍

DaveBj
 
First, Jesus is present in the community (where two or three are gathered…).
Second, in the person of the Priest (alter Christus/ in persona Christe)
Third, in the readings (Word of God)
Fourth, physcially and substantially present: Body Blood Soul and Divinity from Consecration on.

Matt
 
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CatholicMatthew:
First, Jesus is present in the community (where two or three are gathered…).
Second, in the person of the Priest (alter Christus/ in persona Christe)
Third, in the readings (Word of God)
Fourth, physcially and substantially present: Body Blood Soul and Divinity from Consecration on.

Matt
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Matt,

See my earlier post on why Jesus is not “physically” present in the Eucharist. He is, indeed, substantially present. We should avoid using terms the Church herself does not use to describe the Real Presence. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church were we read:
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucaristic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord jesus Christ and, therefore *the whole Christ is truly, really and substantially *contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ – by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could note be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial *presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”
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Note that this description is careful to use the term “substantially” and to avoid the term “physically.”

Deacon Ed
 
When we say that Jesus is present “whole and entire, body and blood, soul and divinity” under the appearances of bread and wine, I don’t think that we can exclude physicality. We do, after all, speak the of Eucharist as his body and blood.

Jesus is present whole and entire, but he does not assume or take on the appearances of bread and wine. He is, rather, hidden beneath those appearances. Since the substance of the bread and wine are gone, their “accidents” or “appearances” do not inhere in any substance. But they hide from us the real Jesus who is present beneath them.

Further, if the host is broken into two, or four, or eight, each remaining piece or particle contains the entire Jesus, not a part of him. We do not break Jesus by breaking the host or subdividing the precious blood.

Jesus has but one body, not multiple bodies. The Jesus you receive is the same Jesus I receive. That is why we are drawn together into a communion, because we have received one and the same body of Christ.

For a more complete discussion, see this article from the Homiletic and Pastoral Review.
 
Jim,

You are correct that there is a physical element, but it is by concomitance (which is a fairly deep subject all by itself). This is why the Church does not use the term “physical presence” but, rather, “substantial presence.” Even dealing with the issue of substance versus accidents gets us into failry significant aspects of Aquinas’ philosophical underpinnings.

Deacon Ed
 
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