RE: puritism and pietism

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dling

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I know these are two different things (but similar in application to lifestyles) but I am lumping them together on purpose. I am a re-vert. This year I came back to the church after 25 years of being a devoted protestant. I married a protestant gal and raised 7 children protestant children. Prayers are appreciated. This has been a challenge for my family.

My question is this. I love the church. What probably drew me away in the first place was witenessing different kinds of lives in protestants. However, I did not come *back *to the church because of anything I “witnessed” in the faithful’s behaviors. I came to it through the “Fathers” and the spiritual confusion caused by sola scriptura.

I do not understand why Catholics seem to feel no need to act in moral ways. They cuss, drink, act just like the world… outside of church, I see no fruit in most.

Can anyone fill me in on what the church believes… that makes this attitude so pervasive?

Do they think that going to church and participating in sacraments is enough? They will just plan on the sacrament of reconciliation and time in purgatory doing the “cleaning” job for them?

Thanks.
 
I think it’s simple.

Many Catholics are ‘culturally’ Catholic. They are Catholic because their parents are Catholic and their parents before them and theirs before them. They have not been taught the proper way to behave and unfortunately either their family didn’t bother to teach them (maybe because they themselves didn’t know any better) or they just didn’t listen to their family.

When I see a Catholic who behaves in unChristian ways I assume they just don’t know any better and often I’m right.

I had a Catholic friend who was sleeping with her boyfriend and receiving the Eucharist. I spoke to her and SHE DIDN’T KNOW she was committing a mortal sin.

I like the fact that Catholics don’t pretend to be perfect. I love that the Catholic Church is this big hospital for sinners. It actually makes me far more comfortable then I ever felt in very pious Protestant churches. In Protestant churches I always felt like the only sore spot in a sea of perfect people. I hated it.

Here I feel like okay… I mess up but everyone else around me has messed up too and here we all are, at the Lord’s feet. 🙂 It’s such a comfort.

I would challenge you to start speaking to your Catholic brothers and sisters. They probably don’t know they’re sinning. Don’t accuse them of sinning but just find ways to share truth with them. You may be surprised how many just didn’t know any better.
 
I agree. The lack of puritism is refreshing. Besides drinking, smoking and cussing, I don’t really see much difference in the lives of protestants and Catholics. But I do think there is more of an effort on the part of some brands of protestants to live a holy life.
Many Catholics are ‘culturally’ Catholic. They are Catholic because their parents are Catholic and their parents before them and theirs before them. They have not been taught the proper way to behave and unfortunately either their family didn’t bother to teach them (maybe because they themselves didn’t know any better) or they just didn’t listen to their family.
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Why is there not more teaching and expectation of good behavior from the Church… I think it is one of the biggest stumbling blocks in evangelization.

So my question remains.

Is there something in Catholic doctrine that re-inforces this prevailing attitude?

Thanks,

Dave
 
dling said:
I do not understand why Catholics seem to feel no need to act in moral ways. They cuss, drink, act just like the world… outside of church, I see no fruit in most.

Can anyone fill me in on what the church believes… that makes this attitude so pervasive?

Thanks.
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Drinking is not a sin! When Jesus instituted the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, he turned water into wine. My husband has shared beers and wine with priest friends, and some monks brew. To believe drinking alcohol is sinful is Puritanism, not Catholicism.
 
Sorry, wasn’t trying to say drinking is a sin. Probably should have said drunkiness.

The point is, that it is commonly the case that I see no evidence of Christian lifestyle, beyond the taking of sacraments in so many Catholic lives. Remember I was a cradle Catholic and still observe my family members who have been life long Catholics… I went to Catholic grade school and high school. I as a Catholic thought nothing of God in my daily life. It had absolutely no influence on me. This did not change until I became a protestant.

So again, my question remains.

Is there something in Catholic doctrine that re-inforces this prevailing attitude?

Sacramental impact maybe?

Thanks,

Dave
 
dling said:
Sorry, wasn’t trying to say drinking is a sin. Probably should have said drunkiness.

The point is, that it is commonly the case that I see no evidence of Christian lifestyle, beyond the taking of sacraments in so many Catholic lives. Remember I was a cradle Catholic and still observe my family members who have been life long Catholics… I went to Catholic grade school and high school. I as a Catholic thought nothing of God in my daily life. It had absolutely no influence on me. This did not change until I became a protestant.

So again, my question remains.

Is there something in Catholic doctrine that re-inforces this prevailing attitude?

Sacramental impact maybe?

Thanks,

Dave
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No. We are instructed to train our kids. Parents have to vow to train their children when the child is baptized. People just don’t take it seriously.

The responsibility is not on the Church. It is not the Church that is failing. The Church is very clear on the fact that we are supposed to instruct our children AND that we ourselves are to seek to know more and be better. It is parents. Parents are letting their children down by not teaching them properly.

Sorry if that’s harsh but that’s my viewpoint.

As for individuals, we are each responsible for ourselves. We each have to want to learn. We each have to seek knowledge. And unfortunately many, many people don’t. Again, this is NOT THE FAULT OF THE CHURCH. The Church gives us many opportunities to learn, people just aren’t taking those opportunities. 🤷
 
Also, Dave, with all due respect… I’m not sure you’re in any position to say that Catholics are less pious then Protestants.

I don’t see many Protestant nuns, priests or monks. 😛

I daresay there are many, many holy and pious people in the Catholic Church. They just don’t make a spectacle of themselves so they’re hard to spot.
 
dling said:
I know these are two different things (but similar in application to lifestyles) but I am lumping them together on purpose. I am a re-vert. This year I came back to the church after 25 years of being a devoted protestant. I married a protestant gal and raised 7 children protestant children. Prayers are appreciated. This has been a challenge for my family.

My question is this. I love the church. What probably drew me away in the first place was witenessing different kinds of lives in protestants. However, I did not come *back *to the church because of anything I “witnessed” in the faithful’s behaviors. I came to it through the “Fathers” and the spiritual confusion caused by sola scriptura.

I do not understand why Catholics seem to feel no need to act in moral ways. They cuss, drink, act just like the world… outside of church, I see no fruit in most.

Can anyone fill me in on what the church believes… that makes this attitude so pervasive?

**Do they think that going to church and participating in sacraments is enough? They will just plan on the sacrament of reconciliation and time in purgatory doing the “cleaning” job for them? **
Thanks.
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First, welcome back to the Church! It is wonderful that you came home, and I am sure that it is far from easy if your family is not on board with it.

To answer your question, particularly the part in bold: The type of Catholics frequent the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis are, generally speaking, not the type who will be living in an immoral fashion as you describe. Of course, we all have sins that we struggle with, and that is why we need the sacraments of Confession/Reconciliation and the Eucharist; but the Catholics who receive these sacraments regularly are usually at least trying to overcome their sins and live in a way that pleases God.

As Nicky said, there are many people who describe themselves as Catholic but are ignorant of what the Church teaches, or in some cases, just don’t care. That is the fault of poor catechesis, not of some deficiency in Church theology or teaching.

I’m not sure how long you’ve been back in the Church, but I would bet that the more that you try to meet other Catholics and attend Catholic “events” (in addition to Mass, of course), the more you will run across Catholics who love the Lord and who are trying to live the Christian life. I know that in my almost two years as a Catholic, I have been blessed with many Catholic friends who are an inspiration and encouragement in my walk with the Lord. Depending on the area where you live, it may take a little while to find them, but there are always more “serious” Catholics than you think there are.
 
dling said:
Sorry, wasn’t trying to say drinking is a sin. Probably should have said drunkiness.

The point is, that it is commonly the case that I see no evidence of Christian lifestyle, beyond the taking of sacraments in so many Catholic lives. Remember I was a cradle Catholic and still observe my family members who have been life long Catholics… I went to Catholic grade school and high school. I as a Catholic thought nothing of God in my daily life. It had absolutely no influence on me. This did not change until I became a protestant.

So again, my question remains.

Is there something in Catholic doctrine that re-inforces this prevailing attitude?

Sacramental impact maybe?

Thanks,

Dave
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Welcome home! 👋

Catholic doctrine encourages conversion, following Christ (and following the Ten Commandments) and responding affirmatively to the universal call to holiness.

That some (or many) Catholics ignore that teaching is regrettable and needs to change. That’s why there has been so much talk in the Church of the “new evangelization”. This new evangelization is about re-evangelizing those Catholics who have grown lukewarm in their faith.

How Catholics rationalize behaving in ways contrary to the Church’s teaching varies from person to person. As Nicky said, some are “cultural” Catholics. They were raised Catholic. Their parents and grandparents (and great-grandparents, etc.) were all Catholic. So they think of “Catholic” as a part of their identity much as people might think of their ethnicity as part of their identity. It’s really just an accident of birth that need not influence their life in any other way.

Others were poorly catechized. Maybe they heard a lot about God’s love for us, but not so much about His expectations of us.

In all honesty, though, I think a lot of people just don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about it. Their actions may not match their supposed beliefs, but if you don’t ponder the disconnect, you don’t see it. And if you don’t see it, you don’t worry about it.
 
nickybr38 said:
Also, Dave, with all due respect… I’m not sure you’re in any position to say that Catholics are less pious then Protestants.

I don’t see many Protestant nuns, priests or monks. 😛

I daresay there are many, many holy and pious people in the Catholic Church. They just don’t make a spectacle of themselves so they’re hard to spot.
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Indeed… I agree. Was just wondering why there seems to be more emphasis on holy living in the protestant churches.

I come across many protestant “Christians” all the time, that bear no fruit, and think they are saved because they said a sinners prayer sometime in their past. But are some Catholics sometimes likewise deceived that they are saved because they are baptized, went through confirmation, go to mass and take communion, and forget about God the rest of the week? You will know the tree by its fruit.

Oh well, thanks for the answers. I am glad to hear that the cause is in the folks, not the Church. We are all sinners, in need of salvation. All churches (Catholic and protestant) are full of folks that need salvation.

Dave
 
EnglishTeacher said:
I’m not sure how long you’ve been back in the Church, but I would bet that the more that you try to meet other Catholics and attend Catholic “events” (in addition to Mass, of course), the more you will run across Catholics who love the Lord and who are trying to live the Christian life. I know that in my almost two years as a Catholic, I have been blessed with many Catholic friends who are an inspiration and encouragement in my walk with the Lord. Depending on the area where you live, it may take a little while to find them, but there are always more “serious” Catholics than you think there are.
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I am finding that to be the case. Awesome folks. Let us not hide our lives under a bushel.

Dave
 
dling said:
Indeed… I agree. Was just wondering why there seems to be more emphasis on holy living in the protestant churches.
Dave
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Another thought . . . I love the Church, too, but I have wondered along these lines at times, too. I think part of it may be that the nature of Protestantism is to band together relatively small groups of like-minded people. In Protestant Christianity, if people decide that they don’t like a particular denomination or local assembly, they leave. For example, if you decide you don’t like your Baptist church’s prohibition on smoking and going to the movies, then you might head over to the nearest non-denominational church down the road, where they aren’t quite so picky. The result tends to be that people with the same or similar “standards” are concentrated in groups.

In the Catholic Church, on the other hand, people aren’t as used to the concept of hopping around and latching on to some other brand of Christianity once they don’t like something in their local church. (Sure, some do, but it’s not as widespread and common as it is in Protestantism.) Plus, for whatever reason (perhaps because of the sacramental nature of the faith) people tend to see their Catholic identity as an ingrained part of who they are, oftentimes even if they are largely ignorant of what their own Church teaches. As a result, many will still identify themselves as Catholic, even if they don’t go to Mass much or make the faith part of their everyday lives.

These two phenomenons combined may make it seem like their are more “holy” Protestants than Catholics, when really it is just the result of Protestant splitting and rearranging–those who are interested in their faith stay in groups with others who are likewise interested.

Those are just my thoughts–I’m not sure if I clearly expressed what I was trying to say. But I do agree that the Catholic Church needs to place a renewed emphasis on evangelization and holy living. We’re trying, but everything takes a long time in the Catholic Church. 🙂 That’s something I found out quickly.
 
EnglishTeacher said:
Another thought . . . I love the Church, too, but I have wondered along these lines at times, too. I think part of it may be that the nature of Protestantism is to band together relatively small groups of like-minded people. In Protestant Christianity, if people decide that they don’t like a particular denomination or local assembly, they leave. For example, if you decide you don’t like your Baptist church’s prohibition on smoking and going to the movies, then you might head over to the nearest non-denominational church down the road, where they aren’t quite so picky. The result tends to be that people with the same or similar “standards” are concentrated in groups.

In the Catholic Church, on the other hand, people aren’t as used to the concept of hopping around and latching on to some other brand of Christianity once they don’t like something in their local church. (Sure, some do, but it’s not as widespread and common as it is in Protestantism.) Plus, for whatever reason (perhaps because of the sacramental nature of the faith) people tend to see their Catholic identity as an ingrained part of who they are, oftentimes even if they are largely ignorant of what their own Church teaches. As a result, many will still identify themselves as Catholic, even if they don’t go to Mass much or make the faith part of their everyday lives.

Just a thought.
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That is a keen observation. I never thought of that.

Yes… in much of protestantism, if you don’t like this one… go to that one. Sadly, its too much centered around “me”.

Dave
 
A shorter version of what I was trying to say is this:

If you were to take all Protestants from all Protestant denominations and somehow throw them all together into one big Protestant Church, I am doubtful that the level of “holiness” (for lack of a better term) would be any higher there than in the Catholic Church. Certain denominations or local assemblies in Protestantism seem to have (and often do have) a higher level of holiness because those that were interested in holiness stayed, while those that were not, broke off and left.

In the Catholic Church, we are all thrown together into one big Church, saints and sinners alike, and that’s why it may seem as though the percentage of Catholics interested in holy living, is lower.
 
PLEASE, don’t anybody take what I’m about to say the wrong way. I am NOT name-calling any person or group.

The Pharisees get a bum rap in the New Testament. Certainly there were hypocritical and wicked Pharisees; there are such in every human group. But they were the original “holy livers”. Boy, did their visible lives bear fruit! They made their phylacteries long and their fringes broad. They tithed mint and dill and all manner of herbs. They fasted twice a week. Their charity was generous and public; why, they even had trumpets blown to announce the latest charity drive! I’m pretty sure that if they had had suits, ties, and fine leather-bound Bibles back then, they would have worn and carried them with pride.

But Jesus said that that’s not what it’s about. It’s about falling on your dirty, ill-clad knees, and striking your breast, and saying “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

As a side note, I’ve read sometimes that Catholics are criticized for running out after Mass, jumping into cars, and peeling out of the lot. Where’s the “time of fellowship”? I wonder - who do you think has the most faith in gasoline? Those who gather around the pump, and give thanks to the pump, and talk about how lovely it is to see everyone at the pump on this fine Sunday morning - or somebody who pulls in, gasses up, and then goes about their business fully fueled?
 
Thank you ALL for the replies. Great thoughts. I SEE these things you are saying to me. I see with my eyes, but also with my heart. I wish so many would have eyes to see… ears to hear. Let us pray for the conversion of souls to the Truth.
As a side note, I’ve read sometimes that Catholics are criticized for running out after Mass, jumping into cars, and peeling out of the lot. Where’s the “time of fellowship”? I wonder - who do you think has the most faith in gasoline? Those who gather around the pump, and give thanks to the pump, and talk about how lovely it is to see everyone at the pump on this fine Sunday morning - or somebody who pulls in, gasses up, and then goes about their business fully fueled?
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Kinda reminds me of a parable of the two sons.

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; and he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he repented and went. 30 And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.

Dave
 
Oxford_Cleric said:
PLEASE, don’t anybody take what I’m about to say the wrong way. I am NOT name-calling any person or group.

The Pharisees get a bum rap in the New Testament. Certainly there were hypocritical and wicked Pharisees; there are such in every human group. But they were the original “holy livers”. Boy, did their visible lives bear fruit! They made their phylacteries long and their fringes broad. They tithed mint and dill and all manner of herbs. They fasted twice a week. Their charity was generous and public; why, they even had trumpets blown to announce the latest charity drive! I’m pretty sure that if they had had suits, ties, and fine leather-bound Bibles back then, they would have worn and carried them with pride.

But Jesus said that that’s not what it’s about. It’s about falling on your dirty, ill-clad knees, and striking your breast, and saying “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

As a side note, I’ve read sometimes that Catholics are criticized for running out after Mass, jumping into cars, and peeling out of the lot. Where’s the “time of fellowship”? I wonder - who do you think has the most faith in gasoline? Those who gather around the pump, and give thanks to the pump, and talk about how lovely it is to see everyone at the pump on this fine Sunday morning - or somebody who pulls in, gasses up, and then goes about their business fully fueled?
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That’s an interesting analogy I’ve not heard before, but --if you’ll permit me – the Church is more than just a gas station. We don’t just pull in, get charged up, and move on. The Church is also the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ. She is integral to our identity. Fellowship has always been part of that. We’re not just ships passing in the night (or cars passing by the pump). We are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

If those who left Mass in a hurry (even before the end of the Mass) did so because they were so on fire with love for the Lord that they could not bear to wait another moment to go out there and preach the Gospel, then I don’t think as many people would have a problem with it. 😛 I don’t think that’s what concerns us, though. 😉
 
Joe, you are permitted, sir. I’m glad the analogy was interesting; I never promised it would be brilliant! 😛
 
Joe_5859 said:
T The Church is also the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ. She is integral to our identity. Fellowship has always been part of that. We’re not just ships passing in the night (or cars passing by the pump). We are brothers and sisters in the Lord.
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Amen.
 
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