Reading/learning - truth of the Bible

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Maria3m

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One more question that stands out from last night’s RCIA class.

Our instructor said that the slaughter of two year olds and under by Herod in Matthew 2:16 “never happened”. It seemed to confuse a couple of us. I believe the church even honors those first martyrs during the Feast of Holy Innocents in December.

Now, I’m going to wonder what else really didn’t happen.

How can I learn the truth when all that I’m reading in the Bible isn’t true?
 
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Maria3m:
One more question that stands out from last night’s RCIA class.

Our instructor said that the slaughter of two year olds and under by Herod in Matthew 2:16 “never happened”. It seemed to confuse a couple of us. I believe the church even honors those first martyrs during the Feast of Holy Innocents in December.

Now, I’m going to wonder what else really didn’t happen.

How can I learn the truth when all that I’m reading in the Bible isn’t true?
Hi–How does he know it never happened? Was he there? I wouldn’t take his word as ‘gospel truth’–nicolo
 
What modernist scholars usually mean by this is since the event is not mentioned outside the Scriptures, it must not have happened. In order to arrive at that conclusion, one must discount the fact that the Bible itself IS a primary historical source. This is what is known as a “hermanuetic of suspicion.”

One of the (many) things wrong with the modernist approach is that half-biblically educated instructors spout off scholarly theories as if they are established facts, thinking they are being smart or “cutting edge.” A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

It’s too bad you have to be subjected to this clap-trap during RCIA, but the best thing is to grin and bear it and pursue other Catholic Bible studies with resources that are more conducive to your faith. To get started, I recommend you visit my website, linked below.
 
While it is an apocryphal work, the Protevangelium of James describes how not only the Holy Family fled to Egypt, but Elizabeth hid John the Baptist in a cleft in the rock. There is a church in Ein Karem dedicated to this event. There was one as far back as 530 according to Theodosius.
 
Hi Maria,

I think it would help to consider a few things when thinking about this event:
  1. Put yourself back in the context that this happened in. There was no mass access to news the way we have it today, so a lot of what happened in one area often stayed there. It is therefore not surprising that this is recorded in only one historical source, in this case the Gospel of Matthew.
  2. Also remember that Herod was a real mean guy (for example killing members of his own family and anyone else who challenged him), so this kind of behavior was entirely in keeping with what else we know of him.
  3. You also have to keep in mind that Bethlehem was a really small, out of the way litle town. The best estimates of its size place it at about 500 or so people, so this was not a massacre of hundreds or thousands, but of perhaps tens.
So all in all, the story of an well-known, tyrannical ruler killing off a few potential enemies in an attempt to hold on to power would not have really captivated the attention of the Roman world and carried very far.

If you want a more in-depth treatment of the archaeology and history supporting this, I think John McRay would be a good place to start. Another book that I liked was “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel, which I think gets at the historicity question you were asking from a lot of angles. Look at the evidence. The more I read, the more I am convinced of the historicity of the New Teatament.

Hope this helps.
 
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Fidelis:
To get started, I recommend you visit my website, linked below.
Thank you for pointing out your website, Fidelis. After reading the page, How to Get Started, I’ve added your site to my favorites. I like the personal feel of it…the way it feels like you’re talking to me. I plan to return to glean more info. 🙂
 
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Maria3m:
Now, I’m going to wonder what else really didn’t happen.
Fortunately, the church recognizes that the historicity of many events is open to question. We are only required to believe the absolute historical truth of extremely few things in the bible.

If you are going to start down this path, you need to listen and study on both sides. There are fundmental extremists who can come up with some form of logic to explain every non-historical argument and there are those on the other side who may go so far as to deny Jesus even existed.

This is huge area of debate and it is not just between religions - it is a vast ongoing and unsettled question within the catholic church, regardless of what some will try to say about the absolute inerrancy and historical truth of the bible.

It is difficult for many to even discuss that most of the events related in the infancy narratives are probably fiction but that is exactly what one of the members of the pontifical biblical commission frequently wrote about (and he was appointed by two different popes). Books written under the *imprimatur *explore the same ideas.

The example you mention (the slaughter of the innocents) comes from Matthew who, on further analysis, is obviously weaving a portrait of Jesus as the new Moses to influence his Jewish audience with the importance of Jesus. You can see this throughout his story - the flight into Egypt, the killing of the children, etc. Now on one hand we have a story which not only has no historical support *but also has absolutely no support from the other gospels. *On the other hand, we have an author creating a powerful story to support his theme (and the truth) that Jesus is the “New Moses”. Why bother forcing our concept of history somewhere it doesn’t fit when there is a perfectly formed literary work staring us in the face?

These are the types of things taught by the church and believed by many (if not most). Please do some reading on this side also - you will be pleasantly surprised. I especially recommend *“And God Said What?: An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms”, *published by the Paulist Press. This is used in many catholic adult religious education classes.
How can I learn the truth when all that I’m reading in the Bible isn’t true?
The problem with this statement is that the “truth” can be taught quite well using total fiction. If a writer is doing that, it is very wrong for us to decide that they cannot. The church teaches that the writers were teaching “…solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” Most fundamentalists will leave off those five words and that is a grave mistake which, as in your experience, causes unwarranted confusion and anxiety.

Here is what the church says: "To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to “literary forms.” For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another."
 
The example you mention (the slaughter of the innocents) comes from Matthew who, on further analysis, is obviously weaving a portrait of Jesus as the new Moses to influence his Jewish audience with the importance of Jesus. You can see this throughout his story - the flight into Egypt, the killing of the children, etc.
These are called types, and the Bible is full of them. However, just because we can see in a NT event it’s type in the OT, does not automatically make the NT event an invention or an “obvious weaving.” There is no reason to not accept it as an historical event unless it is definitively proved otherwise, on the level of finding a reliable historical document that says “Hey, you know that Herod killing the babies thing–it never happened.” Other criteria must be used.
Now on one hand we have a story which not only has no historical support but also has absolutely no support from the other gospels. On the other hand, we have an author creating a powerful story to support his theme (and the truth) that Jesus is the “New Moses”
We have many examples of events found in John’s Gospel that are not found in the synoptics (Matthew, Mark, Luke) nor are they attested by outside documents. Just to mention a few: the wedding at Cana, the John 6 Bread of Life discourse, and the raising of Lazarus. Does this mean these also didn’t happen? If we took all the events that met this criteria out of the Scriptures we’d all be using a Bible like Thomas Jefferson’s or the dopey Jesus Seminar folks.

Perhaps one might say these events were not as public events that would merit historical corroboration by extra-biblical sources? One could counter by saying the raising of a rotting dead man in front of a whole village was pretty significant. On the other hand, the fact that Herod’s slaughter of the innocent isn’t otherwise recorded by history is not surprising-- as someone noted, the actual numbers were probably small, and in any case ancient rulers tended to record only their great and worthy deeds, not shameful little paranoid episodes that occured in a provincial backwater like Bethlehem.
 
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Fidelis:
These are called types, and the Bible is full of them. However, just because we can see in a NT event it’s type in the OT, does not automatically make the NT event an invention or an “obvious weaving.” There is no reason to not accept it as an historical event unless it is definitively proved otherwise, on the level of finding a reliable historical document that says “Hey, you know that Herod killing the babies thing–it never happened.” Other criteria must be used.
Scholars have been using other criteria for a long time and there is still no evidence for a great many stories.
We have many examples of events found in John’s Gospel that are not found in the synoptics (Matthew, Mark, Luke) nor are they attested by outside documents. Just to mention a few: the wedding at Cana, the John 6 Bread of Life discourse, and the raising of Lazarus. Does this mean these also didn’t happen?
I believe they did not happen, especially considering the source as being the gospel which is probably farthest removed from the events and least historical.
If we took all the events that met this criteria out of the Scriptures we’d all be using a Bible like Thomas Jefferson’s or the dopey Jesus Seminar folks.
Ah , you don’t understand the Jesus Seminar. I wouldn’t be a Catholic at all if it weren’t for the insight provided by them.
Perhaps one might say these events were not as public events that would merit historical corroboration by extra-biblical sources? One could counter by saying the raising of a rotting dead man in front of a whole village was pretty significant. On the other hand, the fact that Herod’s slaughter of the innocent isn’t otherwise recorded by history is not surprising-- as someone noted, the actual numbers were probably small, and in any case ancient rulers tended to record only their great and worthy deeds, not shameful little paranoid episodes that occured in a provincial backwater like Bethlehem.
Things like that are always “possible” but then that doesn’t mean much since one can argue that anything is “possible”. Critical historians consider what is “probable” and I think it is infinitely more probable that the author created stories such as this to make a point than that history missed them all.
 
The difficulty with trying to explain away biblical episodes as the author’s efforts to bring out a point etc : seem fraught with danger …

As we all know , most of the denominational divisions , the lukewarmness / loss of faith in the church , all has some connection to this tendency …

What is wrong with accepting what is in The Scripture …
After all , we hear that scientists trying to send the rocket to the moon had to redo the calculations to account for the incident in OT about the sun being set back…( www.creationevidence .org )
We hear of the miracle of the sun, in Fatema , witnessed by thousands …
And now we know ,science has shown that there are actually as many stars as grains of sand on the seashore …
it is dangerous if not arrogant to call the apostles as liars - as just making up things to bring out a point …seem too contrived …The Lord does not need that kind of help to bring out the truth of who He is and His mission…
The serpent did that in the garden , about The Father…
Unless something is definitely felt/known to be symbolic ( such as the dragon with ten horns , in the book of Rev. - well even there we might find one day, there is a real dragon with ten horns , as the power behind )
Let us leave the truth of historical incidents in the scriptures where they belong …if evidence is brought out to support biblical account, well and good …if not, we would wait …eternity is for ever :o
 
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patg:
Scholars have been using other criteria for a long time and there is still no evidence for a great many stories.
This was addressed above.
I believe they did not happen,especially considering the source as being the gospel which is probably farthest removed from the events and least historical.
Furthest removed compared to what? 🙂 To disbelieve something just because it only appears in the gospel is to disavow Scripture as a primary historical document.To do so one would have to hold that the Scriptures are *entirely * worthless as narrative history.
Ah , you don’t understand the Jesus Seminar. I wouldn’t be a Catholic at all if it weren’t for the insight provided by them.
Actually, I understand them quite well, thank you, and I am a Catholic in spite of their mischief. 🙂
Things like that are always “possible” but then that doesn’t mean much since one can argue that anything is “possible”. Critical historians consider what is “probable”…
Such “probablity,” if it is dismissive of the biblical witness, is no better than the most speculative possibility.
I think it is infinitely more probable that the author created stories such as this to make a point than that history missed them all.
I disagree. 🙂
 
Good going there Fidelis and all who support the inerrancy of The Scripture and having the faith like of a child in The Words of The Father …
What is sad is , as St. Francis Xavior had said, if all the money and efforts at all kinds of scholarly levels about these arguments had been spent , on proclaiming The Word, would it already have reached the ends of the earth…

Our Father is PATIENT and merciful …(? esp. with The Bride . :o .)

Hope you are familiar with a wondeful book by Ralph Martin,titled - What is The Spirit saying to The churches …’- shows how the Power behind the growth of the other denominations is their proclaiming the Word , lifting up Jesus , with faith and zeal…
 
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